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Author Topic: KOSH ATC Audio of N6JR Incident  (Read 66836 times)
pilotmike
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« on: July 27, 2010, 10:44:14 PM »

Most of the audio of the incident at Oshkosh this evening was on the South Tower Frequency, but I have included both. I did trim down the audio slightly from when N6JR initially checks in.

Pilot: "Is 6JR going to be okay with this?"
ATC: "Afirm..."
Pilot: "I don't think so."

I'm glad everyone is okay!

Update 1: Here is a pic of Jack exiting the aircraft as posted by Twitter user jasonmcdowell. (Warning: there is blood): http://yfrog.com/mns2jj

Update 2: Added audio of KOSH-App-Fisk during airport shutdown. In addition, I can't figure out why the South Twr archive is missing some audio. Most archive clips are about 31 Minutes long, but for some reason the South Twr audio archive is only 18 Minutes and missing several minutes right after what I have already posted. Can anyone confirm if they get the same thing when they pull up the South Twr archive from 2300-2330Z?

* KOSH-Twr-South-Incident.mp3 (2798.37 KB - downloaded 3133 times.)
* KOSH-Twr-North-Incident.mp3 (298.77 KB - downloaded 1233 times.)
* KOSH-App-Fisk-Incident.mp3 (2854.69 KB - downloaded 1601 times.)
« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 08:42:23 PM by pilotmike » Logged

KBOITDog
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Oshkosh '08


« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2010, 11:20:52 PM »

A little more info on the accident...
http://www.thenorthwestern.com/article/20100727/OSH0107/100727152
Hope Jack comes through OK.
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Tony
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« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2010, 01:45:35 AM »

Thanks for posting this Mike!
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summersa74
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« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2010, 05:36:08 AM »

I think it is time for The Cat in the Hat to hang it up.
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cptbrw
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« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2010, 07:34:27 AM »

This is a CNN article with video of Roush and his passenger exiting the aircraft after the accident.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/07/28/wisconsin.roush.crash/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn
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withanhdammit
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« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2010, 12:20:17 PM »

Mike,

I got the same, only 18 minutes for archive KOSH-Twr-South-Jul-27-2010-2300Z

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stan1541
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« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2010, 03:43:56 PM »

Listening live yesterday during the incident (North Tower), i was having intermitent stoppages in transmission, but i thought it was my internet, maybe it was their stream.
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RRlocoENGR
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« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2010, 12:32:07 PM »


The part that gave me chills was when an aircraft asks, "Is 6JR going to be okay with us?"
ATC: "Afirm..."
Pilot: "I don't think so."


That was N6JR (Roush) asking "Is 6JR going to be okay with this?"  You quoted it as "us".  Thanks for posting the audio files!
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RRlocoENGR
RRlocoENGR
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« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2010, 06:19:46 PM »

I have listened to this audio so many times trying to figure what went wrong.  I have to admit up front that I am a Jack Roush fan, so I am desiring to find that it was not just poor aviation skill on his part.   undecided

At first, I thought that the traffic referred to as "Lake" may have been part of the problem.  After several listens I have deducted that although the controller stumbled somewhat on the instructions given to "Lake", that was simply the aircraft in the pattern behind N6JR.  After the mishap "Lake" was told to go around.  The audio that was played on Speed Channel was edited to sound as though Roush made his statement of disapproval immediately after the confused instructions to "Lake".  After listening to your real time audio, it is apparent that Roush made his displeasure with the situation known well after the controller instructions to "Lake".

I believe that Mr. Roush (N6JR) was put into a cramped predicament with traffic landing ahead of him.  He expressed his doubts to the controller by asking "Is 6JR going to be okay with this?"  The controller assured him it was going to work.  I am not sure what type was ahead of 6JR, but my guess is that it was a slower aircraft and Mr. Roush recognized pending difficulty as he turned base for final.  He stated "I don't think so!"

Just BEFORE the controller warns 6JR of caution for traffic ahead upwind (a bit late in my opinion), you can hear an unintelligible transmission which I believe was 6JR stating that he was going around!  Reports that 6JR was too slow for his type would also make sense here, considering that I believe he was jammed into a situation where his type was too close behind the slower aircraft landing ahead.

Considering he may have been pressed to slow on final and then because eyewitness reports stated that he applied power as if to go around makes sense.  It sounds as if he trusted the controller a bit too long....maybe he should have called a go around sooner.  It sounds as though by the time he applied power to go around, the stall overcame the aircraft and some adverse yaw from the power rotated the Premier to the right.

I may not be qualified to speak this much on the subject since I am a Locomotive Engineer, but I have studied aviation all my life and just dream of one day being a pilot.  A good pilot like Mr. Roush!
 cool

Wow, I got chills posting that!  LOL!
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RRlocoENGR
RRlocoENGR
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« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2010, 06:38:39 PM »

...and another thing that bothers me.  When the controller was very tardy in warning 6JR of traffic ahead upwind on the runway, AFTER 6Jr's voicing his displeasure, where did the controller go?  It is obvious that someone else took over.  I guess the controller freaked and called for a relief!

He probably went to the restroom to finish wetting himself!
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RRlocoENGR
pilotmike
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« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2010, 08:49:42 PM »

Quote
That was N6JR (Roush) asking "Is 6JR going to be okay with this?"  You quoted it as "us".  Thanks for posting the audio files!

I re-listened the the audio tonight on my desktop PC (vs my Netbook) and you are absolutely right, that is 6JR and it seems very clear on desktop speakers. I've edited the quote in my original post.

Good analysis of the audio everyone! I had not even noticed the controller swap after the incident.
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pilotmike
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« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2010, 08:54:15 PM »

I got the same, only 18 minutes for archive KOSH-Twr-South-Jul-27-2010-2300Z

Dave was going to look into it. It's possible there was a connectivity or other technical issue right after the incident. I'm guessing it was just coincidence as I hear lots of people are having issues with data service this year at KOSH.
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RRlocoENGR
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« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2010, 09:05:56 PM »

Quote
That was N6JR (Roush) asking "Is 6JR going to be okay with this?"  You quoted it as "us".  Thanks for posting the audio files!

I re-listened the the audio tonight on my desktop PC (vs my Netbook) and you are absolutely right, that is 6JR and it seems very clear on desktop speakers. I've edited the quote in my original post.

Good analysis of the audio everyone! I had not even noticed the controller swap after the incident.

Thanks for correcting your post, and for recognizing us!
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RRlocoENGR
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« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2010, 09:09:32 PM »

Oh. there definitely was a Controller swap afterwards!  Mr. Roush was thrown into an impossible situation and tried too late to correct for it!
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RRlocoENGR
sykocus
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« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2010, 07:02:31 AM »


I believe that Mr. Roush (N6JR) was put into a cramped predicament with traffic landing ahead of him.  He expressed his doubts to the controller by asking "Is 6JR going to be okay with this?"  The controller assured him it was going to work.  I am not sure what type was ahead of 6JR, but my guess is that it was a slower aircraft and Mr. Roush recognized pending difficulty as he turned base for final.  He stated "I don't think so!"

I listened to a good 3 or 4 minutes of audio before 6JR checks in and heard nothing but dead air. If there was any traffic there's no evidence of it in the feed. Neither did I hear any transmission where the tower tells 6JR to slow down or is told about any traffic. In fact the tower tells him to start his downwind. If was I concerned about a slower aircraft in front of a faster I wouldn't prompt the faster to turn a downwind.

Just BEFORE the controller warns 6JR of caution for traffic ahead upwind (a bit late in my opinion), you can hear an unintelligible transmission which I believe was 6JR stating that he was going around!  Reports that 6JR was too slow for his type would also make sense here, considering that I believe he was jammed into a situation where his type was too close behind the slower aircraft landing ahead.

...and another thing that bothers me.  When the controller was very tardy in warning 6JR of traffic ahead upwind on the runway, AFTER 6Jr's voicing his displeasure, where did the controller go?  It is obvious that someone else took over. 

There's 5 seconds from the garbled transmission that sounds like 6RJ is going around and when the controller issues upwind traffic. An aircraft on a upwind leg (parallel to the runway flying the same direction as the runway) wouldn't be a factor to an aircraft making a full stop. I don't know why you seem to think that 6RJ should have been told about it before he stared going around.

I don't hear a change in controller until 2 transmissions after the lake is told to go around which is presumably when 6RJ crashed.

As I stated in my first paragraph I didn't hear anything that would indicate traffic in front of 6JR or 6JR being told to slow down.  It seems your respect for Jack Roush has caused you to jump to unnecessary conclusions which are not at all supported by the evidence at hand. A lot is being made of the transmission "is 6JR ok with this?". Honestly I have no idea how any conclusion as to what "this" was can be made given there were only 2-3 transmissions made before it and we can't see what the aircraft was actually doing.

I guess the controller freaked and called for a relief!
He probably went to the restroom to finish wetting himself!

These types of comments given the limited data available are just as inappropriate any which would assume Jack Roush was an incompetent pilot.
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RRlocoENGR
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« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2010, 09:55:53 AM »

These types of comments given the limited data available are just as inappropriate any which would assume Jack Roush was an incompetent pilot.

skyfocus,

You are 100% correct about my jumping to uneducated conclusions.  I don't have the experience or the information to make the statements I made in my previous post.  You are also correct in repeating that I have a lot of respect for Mr. Roush.  My scenario was without evidence, none of us really know what happened.

I have heard so many folks jumped to the conclusion that Roush is too old to fly and should hang it up.  I was just as wrong to try and blame the controller or airport.

Thank you for your post!
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RRlocoENGR
rpd
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« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2010, 02:40:12 PM »

It is standard for the controller involved to be relieved after an incident.  There are statements to be made, drug tests, paperwork, etc. Not to mention the controller just witnessed a terrible accident.  

Saying he had to wet himself is not a fair statement.  If there is an accident with only one aircraft in the pattern, you get relief.  It is not a reflection of performance or error on the controllers part, just how its done.

I have no idea what happened in regards to specifics of the N6JR accident at OSH, but the few times I have worked N6JR on overflights, he was very professional.  
« Last Edit: July 30, 2010, 02:41:56 PM by rpd » Logged
mikew188
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« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2010, 11:29:53 PM »

Here is a link of some pics of the crash posted on the TMZ website

http://photos.tmz.com/galleries/jack_roushs_plane_crashed_pictures#tab=most_recent
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alltheway
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« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2010, 05:00:16 AM »

Here is a link of some pics of the crash posted on the TMZ website

http://photos.tmz.com/galleries/jack_roushs_plane_crashed_pictures#tab=most_recent

Wow, that first picture has a real rightwing low position... indicates a stall and the airplane did a near 360 on the ground. . .
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joeyb747
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« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2010, 10:10:17 AM »

Here is a link of some pics of the crash posted on the TMZ website

http://photos.tmz.com/galleries/jack_roushs_plane_crashed_pictures#tab=most_recent

Wow, that first picture has a real rightwing low position... indicates a stall and the airplane did a near 360 on the ground. . .

The airplane did not do a 360 spin on the ground...look again at the pics...focus on the background. The pics of the rear of the airplane are taken from a different vantage point...in all the other pics, ORION is visible is the background.

The right wingtip struck the ground and the aircraft cartwheeled according to witnesses.   



« Last Edit: August 01, 2010, 10:04:32 PM by joeyb747 » Logged

Aircraft Mechanic
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« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2010, 11:57:34 AM »

Different photos from Avweb:

http://www.avweb.com/news/airventure/EAAAirVenture2010_JackRoushCrash_MomentOfImpact_203026-1.html#gallery

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Marty
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« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2010, 09:24:50 PM »

I'm probably being a bit too critical here but after 30 years in law enforcement I found it interesting how the eyewitness account from JoeyB's first referenced Youtube video (the Fox News clip) differed from the actual facts.  He (the eyewitness in the clip) talked about the aircraft cartwheeling and losing its left wing and then about 3 people evacuating the aircraft.  I can't say for sure whether or not the aircraft actually cartwheeled into the ground but the photos published thus far, including those showing the jet just prior to impact, seem to indicate that it pancaked into the ground rather than cartwheeling.  The photos also show both wings still attached in the aftermath and video clearly shows only two people exiting the jet (not to mention all reports indicating only two occupants).  It has always amazed me how inaccurate eyewitness accounts often can be.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2010, 09:29:25 PM by cptbrw » Logged
Solntsa
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« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2010, 09:20:38 AM »

Who can help me with the callsign in the KOSH-TWR-North-Incident?
Can't understand it at all...
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sykocus
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« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2010, 09:18:12 AM »

Who can help me with the callsign in the KOSH-TWR-North-Incident?
Can't understand it at all...

Blue and white lancair? that one?
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djmodifyd
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« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2010, 02:47:07 PM »

new pictures:
http://jalopnik.com/5602493/new-photos-show-roush-plane-crash-as-it-happened

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