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Author Topic: KWHP:"TV7 listen up","you gotta be kiddin". Just another day at Whiteman Class D  (Read 6495 times)
uplink
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« on: March 24, 2010, 06:42:48 PM »

"Adventure 9...no Adventure 11".....Working a VFR tower is full of surprises.  Airplanes are not planned and nicely spaced for you by approach like a Class B tower.    Whiteman (WHP) is sandwiched between Van Nuys, Burbank and the mountains.  Add to that the Santa Ana winds have runways reversed and no room to extend downwinds.  This was just 1 hour at Whiteman, cut down to 16 min.  Keep in mind he is working ground freq. and many other airplanes in the air I had to take out to save file space.  He can get hot under the collar, but I still would not want his job.  undecided
« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 12:53:17 AM by uplink » Logged

Pilot3033
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« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2010, 10:15:06 PM »

LA also has the misfortune of having 5 local TV stations, and several radio stations, with helicopter fleets. Any big traffic accident or news event and you end up with 6 or 7 helicopters all wanting to hover over it. Most of the choppers are based at WHP and VNY, which is why he has to deal with so many (not to mention all the helicopter training facilities).
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N400PW
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« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2010, 01:08:57 AM »

WHP at its finest  smiley
Shows how difficult things could get when staffing levels are low.  Good thing about helicopters you can tell them to land or hold current position, usually those news guys are good about letting the controller know the spot that they will be working
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Pilot3033
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« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2010, 12:10:42 PM »

WHP at its finest  smiley
Shows how difficult things could get when staffing levels are low.  Good thing about helicopters you can tell them to land or hold current position, usually those news guys are good about letting the controller know the spot that they will be working
They have a lot of practice, especially during the late 90s when the only thing local news cared about were car chases. During Michael Jackson's funeral a group of 10 or 15 helos wanted to follow the procession from Encino (just under the final approach for the 34's at VNY) along the 101 to Forest Lawn (inside BUR's Charlie). It was fun to listen to them controlled as a group flight and as they sat low near BUR.

LA airspace is complex, but it is surprisingly VFR friendly. You don't have that "upside down wedding cake" for a Class B, so the only SFC|100 area is directly over LAX, with 2 giant VFR holes on top and a semi-VFR one below that. Everywhere else you can hang low and do as you will. Much of this has to do with the fact that a nearly constant blowing-from-the-west wind means you can space out LAX arrivals in a straight, long, vertically linear line that let's all other traffic pass neatly and safely below.
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cptkirk
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« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2010, 04:09:44 PM »

That guy is horrible.  I can't even count how many times he would not wait for a reply and step on someone then chastise the pilot for not responding.  he also uses great pilot/controller phrasology!   shocked
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Kirk
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« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2010, 04:22:14 PM »

Thank you for the upload, it is very interesting to hear this type of recording!
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Pilot3033
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« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2010, 06:51:21 PM »

That guy is horrible.  I can't even count how many times he would not wait for a reply and step on someone then chastise the pilot for not responding.  he also uses great pilot/controller phrasology!   shocked
Keep in mind that this clip is cut down from over an hour's worth of recording. In addition, the one controller is covering both ground and tower, on the phone with Burbank and Van Nuys, and dealing with a recently increased slew of traffic due to the increased fees at Van Nuys causing new students and PPLs to flock to WHP in search of cheaper flying.

« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 07:29:22 PM by Pilot3033 » Logged
svoynick
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« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2010, 04:00:28 AM »

That guy is horrible.  I can't even count how many times he would not wait for a reply and step on someone then chastise the pilot for not responding.  he also uses great pilot/controller phrasology!   shocked
Keep in mind that this clip is cut down from over an hour's worth of recording. In addition, the one controller is covering both ground and tower, on the phone with Burbank and Van Nuys, and dealing with a recently increased slew of traffic due to the increased fees at Van Nuys causing new students and PPLs to flock to WHP in search of cheaper flying.
Understand about his workload, but the poster who points out that he ends up stepping on aircraft is correct.  When you hear those "beep" and warbling sounds, that's two radio signals mixing in the monitor receiver (not an artifact of the editing down of the clip.)  He seems to be anticipating the end of an aircraft's transmission, and then jumping on his PTT button when he expects someone to be done talking, instead of waiting to actually hear the end of the transmission.  

Again, I understand it's busy, but that's a bad radio habit, and I think it added to everyone's stress on this frequency (including, unfortunately, the controller's.)
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snipper_cr
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« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2010, 12:44:37 AM »

6:25 - 6:50 the heart rate started climbing a bit
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The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
Pilot3033
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« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2010, 03:36:46 AM »

That guy is horrible.  I can't even count how many times he would not wait for a reply and step on someone then chastise the pilot for not responding.  he also uses great pilot/controller phrasology!   shocked
Keep in mind that this clip is cut down from over an hour's worth of recording. In addition, the one controller is covering both ground and tower, on the phone with Burbank and Van Nuys, and dealing with a recently increased slew of traffic due to the increased fees at Van Nuys causing new students and PPLs to flock to WHP in search of cheaper flying.
Understand about his workload, but the poster who points out that he ends up stepping on aircraft is correct.  When you hear those "beep" and warbling sounds, that's two radio signals mixing in the monitor receiver (not an artifact of the editing down of the clip.)  He seems to be anticipating the end of an aircraft's transmission, and then jumping on his PTT button when he expects someone to be done talking, instead of waiting to actually hear the end of the transmission.  

Again, I understand it's busy, but that's a bad radio habit, and I think it added to everyone's stress on this frequency (including, unfortunately, the controller's.)

I understand the concept of a "blocked" transmission. The guy in WHP tower has been controlling for years and was a pilot for many years before that; in other words, don't think for one second that he's losing control. As I mentioned, it is hectic airspace. As far as the blocks go, at the time, he was working tower/ground combined and dealing with several aircraft all at once. Many of those blocks aren't anticipation, they are two pilots trying to call up at the same time.

Radio etiquette goes both ways as well. There's nothing worse than trying to call up a tower or a TRACON but being unable to do so because a pilot is being long-winded. At Whiteman, there are a serious number of weekend fliers and student pilots who just aren't that great at Keeping It Simple, Stupid. There are helicopters everywhere, 10-15 aircraft in the pattern or trying to land, several trying to depart, and in this audio clip, the restrictions in place because of 737 departures out of Burbank and the normal craziness of VNY. In that situation you  should be flying your airplane, not telling the controller how nice the weather is outside.
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svoynick
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« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2010, 04:50:44 AM »

Understand about his workload, but the poster who points out that he ends up stepping on aircraft is correct.  When you hear those "beep" and warbling sounds, that's two radio signals mixing in the monitor receiver (not an artifact of the editing down of the clip.)  He seems to be anticipating the end of an aircraft's transmission, and then jumping on his PTT button when he expects someone to be done talking, instead of waiting to actually hear the end of the transmission.  

Again, I understand it's busy, but that's a bad radio habit, and I think it added to everyone's stress on this frequency (including, unfortunately, the controller's.)

I understand the concept of a "blocked" transmission. The guy in WHP tower has been controlling for years and was a pilot for many years before that; in other words, don't think for one second that he's losing control. As I mentioned, it is hectic airspace. As far as the blocks go, at the time, he was working tower/ground combined and dealing with several aircraft all at once. Many of those blocks aren't anticipation, they are two pilots trying to call up at the same time.

Radio etiquette goes both ways as well. There's nothing worse than trying to call up a tower or a TRACON but being unable to do so because a pilot is being long-winded. At Whiteman, there are a serious number of weekend fliers and student pilots who just aren't that great at Keeping It Simple, Stupid. There are helicopters everywhere, 10-15 aircraft in the pattern or trying to land, several trying to depart, and in this audio clip, the restrictions in place because of 737 departures out of Burbank and the normal craziness of VNY. In that situation you  should be flying your airplane, not telling the controller how nice the weather is outside.
All your points are valid, but none of them validate or justify the bad habit of stepping on the end of somebody's transmission.  It's a fundamental procedural requirement of a half-duplex, two-way radio link that you must wait for the incoming transmission on the frequency to drop before you press your PTT switch; if you don't follow that requirement, you have NO WAY of knowing how much of the incoming transmission is continuing underneath your own carrier.  This isn't specific to ATC, it's true of any half-duplex radio link.

We use tools (like radio communication) to manage risk, and we pilots and controllers follow the procedures attached to those tools as closely as possible because that minimizes risk.  Just because a bad habit "works out OK" 95 or 99% of the time, or because workload is heavy, or because one is distracted by running multiple frequencies, does not insulate you from the risks or consequences of that bad habit.  

Bottom line:  it's an unfavorable risk/reward tradeoff:  if he guesses the end of a transmission right, he doesn't really increase the efficiency on the frequency that much by getting a half-second jump on his own transmission (low reward), and if he guesses wrong, and the transmitting aircraft adds something significant at the end which gets covered up and thus not received by the controller, then as I pointed out earlier, it has at least the consequence of increasing the tension on frequency, which is already in plentiful supply in this clip.

Finally, regarding the implication that this bad habit is driven by workload of the moment, take a listen at 1:02 into the clip in the "airplanes everywhere" thread: http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviation-audio-clips/kwhp-'airplanes-everywhere'/.  Clearly that was not a high-workload situation.
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