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Author Topic: Lost at Night at FRG - in the air and on the ground  (Read 12969 times)
SkanknTodd
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« on: December 25, 2008, 12:09:46 AM »

These two controllers must have the most patience in the world.  I can think of a few controllers who would have ripped this pilot a new one.

* Lost At Night.mp3 (3448.29 KB - downloaded 2761 times.)
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oreotsi
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« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2008, 01:28:05 AM »

hahaha.... I love it... "I'm logging more time in the taxi than on the actual flight."
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NY Z Pilot
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« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2008, 09:21:05 AM »

Thank god im not at a facility with VFR guys anymore...
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Аэрофлот Jr.
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« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2008, 09:55:15 AM »

Nice patient controllers
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mk
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« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2008, 11:20:34 AM »

Thank god im not at a facility with VFR guys anymore...

Those VFR guys are a majority of a few groups out there that are fighting user fees to support a commercialized, corporation ran air traffic control system ran by Raytheon or Lockeed.  Becareful what you wish for.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2008, 11:48:03 AM »

Thank god im not at a facility with VFR guys anymore...

Please.  Imagine a world without VFR pilots and then watch as several of the smaller class D airports around the US lose their towered status all together, resulting in your fellow controller brothers and sisters losing their jobs.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
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« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2008, 01:35:32 PM »

I AM a VFR pilot...  i support AOPA and their fight for everything.. I fly out of FRG. All im saying, is that for WORK, id rather not deal with them. Where I was before, I saw how much of an impact VFR traffic had on our operations. Im not hating.
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spudsmac
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« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2008, 01:20:17 AM »

These two controllers must have the most patience in the world.  I can think of a few controllers who would have ripped this pilot a new one.

If I was the pilot I would get them an Applebees gift card or something after that! It could have been a heart sinking, "496MA POSSIBLE (definite)  PILOT DEVIATION ADVISE YOU CONTACT (blah blah) AT (blah blah)",  cheesy
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keith
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« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2008, 11:47:01 AM »

I'm only 1 minute into the clip and already cringing.  I love how he doesn't even acknowledge the fact that he waltzes into their airspace and hasn't called until he's virtually overhead.  Now we're at the 2:30 mark and she's holding traffic for this bozo, and starting to extend traffic on the downwind to keep ppl away from him.

Phew, at 4 mins, "next time we'll do better."  At least he acknowledges that this is a trainwreck, I give him that much.

He's the friendliest lost pilot I've ever heard....almost as though he has no idea what a giant inconvenience he's causing. Smiley

I'm yet to see a DA-40 that didn't have _at least_ a Garmin 430/530 combo in there.  You have to work fairly hard to ignore the fact that you're busting well into someone's Delta airspace.

It does not come as a shock that some controllers dislike VFR traffic.

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cool92092
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« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2009, 09:50:50 AM »

I instruct at FRG and at night it is one of the worst fields to locate. The controllers really go out of their way to help everyone out. Since this is one of the closest airports to the NYC metro area, most of the NYC students use this airport (except for the ones that live closer to NJ). Some of the things I've heard in and around the airport are just ridiculous and most of the time they don't even get a phone number to call. It always upsets me when some hotshot bonanza/Mooney pilot makes one of those "are there going to be any airplanes taking off in the near future" comments because I know how hard these guys work and the fact that there are 7 airplanes landing one right after the other is no reason to fault the controllers.

As far as the taxiing goes, there is construction next to the major ramp that makes taxiing a terrible nightmare for everyone. Not too long ago i spent 25 mins repositioning an aircraft from one side of the field to the next because I had to circumnavigate the construction. 
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2009, 10:08:50 AM »

I instruct at FRG and at night it is one of the worst fields to locate.

More pilots, even "VFR pilots," should consider requesting an instrument approach to locate unfamiliar airports.  As a pilot who has flown into many unfamiliar airports at night, I find that flying an ILS or even GPS approach for no other reason than to use the localizer/final approach course to line up with the runway an invaluable tool in spotting the airport, even if this means breaking off at a safe distance to enter the pattern to fit in with other aircraft.

With the free availability of approach plates on the Internet as well as the popularity of on-board GPS devices (many with up-to-date instrument procedure data, especially the VFR GPSs), flying a "visual" instrument approach is a safe and practical option when compared to blundering along in complex airspace such as that near New York City.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
beechsundowner
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« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2009, 09:56:32 PM »


With the free availability of approach plates on the Internet as well as the popularity of on-board GPS devices (many with up-to-date instrument procedure data, especially the VFR GPSs), flying a "visual" instrument approach is a safe and practical option when compared to blundering along in complex airspace such as that near New York City.


I'd agree if you were talking about VFR pilots with LOTS, and lots of experience, but having a freshly minted VFR pilot plundering around fixes and NOT keeping their eyes outside the cockpit, not a good idea.  Their experience level is just enough to get them to the airport, to request an IFR fix and expect them to execute it may be above their abilities.  Plus they just may exasperate the situation by interfering with a pilot doing the approach.

The Garmin VFR GPS's I have been exposed to do not have instrument approaches (hence VFR)  They have the fixes to the approach, but you cannot load an approach.

And of course, doing the approach doesn't relieve the pilots duty of navigating the complex airspace issues.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2009, 10:08:12 PM »

The Garmin VFR GPS's I have been exposed to do not have instrument approaches (hence VFR)  They have the fixes to the approach, but you cannot load an approach.

Hmmm, which ones have you been exposed to?  I have seen the 295, 395 and 495 and all have instrument approaches, including descent glidepaths to the MAPs of non-precision approaches.  Of course these are not legal to use for actual approaches, but an impressive feature to compliment situation awareness nonetheless.

As far as a freshly minted VFR pilot flying at night far from their familiar home airport, I would hope they were smarter than that.  smiley  I was referring to the pilots with lots of experience, as in those "hotshot pilots" who fly Bonanzas and Mooneys (to quote the flight instructor). 
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
beechsundowner
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« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2009, 10:49:28 AM »

Hmmm, which ones have you been exposed to?  I have seen the 295, 395 and 495 and all have instrument approaches, including descent glidepaths to the MAPs of non-precision approaches.  Of course these are not legal to use for actual approaches, but an impressive feature to compliment situation awareness nonetheless.

As far as a freshly minted VFR pilot flying at night far from their familiar home airport, I would hope they were smarter than that.  smiley  I was referring to the pilots with lots of experience, as in those "hotshot pilots" who fly Bonanzas and Mooneys (to quote the flight instructor). 

Thankx for correcting me.  Until now, didn't realize my 396 had approaches in the database.  I only use it for XC's and it never crossed my mind to even think about loading approaches on it. 

I have a 430 installed in my plane and you are sooooo right, for situational awareness, it takes the "thinking out of" reading approach plates since it graphically show where you are.

For high time pilots, as you stated, NOT using GPS for situational awareness is inexcusable especially for as much in price they have come down..
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aviator_06
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« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2009, 10:43:06 PM »

Sounds like the pilot might have needed to plan his flight out a little better. I understand that the airfield is hard to locate at night which would make one think to be sure to review the airport on a chart and to look at a airport diagram for night. I am a low time pilot myself with 150+ hours SEL time. So I plan about every flight, especially when I fly at night which happens to be my fav. and have a back up plan. The Controllers did an excellent job of handling the situation.
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N737R
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« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2009, 04:39:58 PM »

I am also a VFR pilot I fly just about any thing I can get my hands on I'm working on my pilots license now for Privet Pilot Then I'm going to instrument and the rest of my ratings
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fdeli
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« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2009, 05:48:52 PM »

Been in and out of FRG at night several times and it is very hard to find that airport, it is actually a dark spot with the worst beacon ever under a class B shelf, so things get tight sometimes.  But the fact is he busted airspace.  Doesn't matter day or night; he wouldn't have seen a wall of D airspace out the window.  His situational awareness was terrible and everything comes undone from there.

Most of us have heard pilots in bad spots not handle the criticism well; or accept the help of ATC and fellow aviators when they already know they messed up.  He gets points back for that.  I think the silence was him concentrating on working his way thought the situation.  So a few more points back.
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chronas
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« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2009, 08:33:18 PM »

Thats really funny cuz 496ma i believe has a G1000 so it should be impossible to get lost.
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rcigliano
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« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2009, 10:45:11 AM »

I actually fly 496MA and it is equipped with a G1000. I also fly out of KFRG. This airport is almost impossible to find at night but with the G1000 you should be able to find the airport, or at least know when you are on top the field.

Also, there are jets at SheltAir but they are far enough away that you can get past them and taxi to the delta hanger. I don't know what he was looking at.

He was the most chatty pilot I have ever heard. He seemed to be clueless about what was going on.
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fholbert
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« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2009, 11:12:20 AM »

I actually fly 496MA and it is equipped with a G1000. I also fly out of KFRG. This airport is almost impossible to find at night but with the G1000 you should be able to find the airport, or at least know when you are on top the field.

Also, there are jets at SheltAir but they are far enough away that you can get past them and taxi to the delta hanger. I don't know what he was looking at.

He was the most chatty pilot I have ever heard. He seemed to be clueless about what was going on.

Getting lost in VFR with a G1000 then having your problem broadcast on the internet...

PRICELESS!

Frank Holbert
http://160knots.com
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Frank Holbert
http://160knots.com
aviator_06
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« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2009, 10:39:14 PM »

I actually fly 496MA and it is equipped with a G1000. I also fly out of KFRG. This airport is almost impossible to find at night but with the G1000 you should be able to find the airport, or at least know when you are on top the field.

Also, there are jets at SheltAir but they are far enough away that you can get past them and taxi to the delta hanger. I don't know what he was looking at.

He was the most chatty pilot I have ever heard. He seemed to be clueless about what was going on.

Getting lost in VFR with a G1000 then having your problem broadcast on the internet...

PRICELESS!

Frank Holbert
http://160knots.com

LOL That's Great!
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