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Author Topic: Manchester Tower Argument with Emirates Pilot  (Read 16570 times)
Casper87
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« on: May 22, 2010, 12:25:43 PM »

UAE018 seems a bit miffed at the prospect of waiting for OPS3.



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ect76
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EGPH


« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2010, 02:37:01 PM »

What an exchange. Never heard anything like it! It wasn't that big of an issue or that big of a delay.
Runway inspections are important and as I understood it from the tower controller must be completed at the specified time.
The Emirates asking the Easyjet directly for a PIREP (Which I'm not sure he ever gave) is also quite unusual....Right down to the coarse handoff to Scottish at the end. Overall an interesting listen!

Also he needs to Lockout all the Police/Taxi/Other digital services from his scanner...I also have a Uniden Bearcat and had the same problem till I locked everything out.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2010, 02:38:56 PM by ect76 » Logged
Casper87
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« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2010, 03:21:39 PM »

Depending on the aerodrome, the airport authority decides when inspections are required. Sounds like this time the aircraft had to be delayed to allow it.
I don't think the delay was the problem but the pilot got snotty 'cos he didn't get an explanation without having to ask.

Very rare to hear controllers get that irate on frequency.
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blackbox tango
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« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2010, 04:17:04 PM »

Dear Readers.
In the course of my duties this type of 'Critical communications' breaks down due to various issues such as Fuel being burned whilst holding which means changing the fuel figures at A1 ,plus commercial pressures both from the controllers and Aircrew to A/ to make the slot alike, sadly I must say after 30 years of being involved in Aviation 'critical comms', just in recent years this type of exchange happens about twice per shift per day at EGCC.

I must say it should be remembered that it was the lack of a Runway inspection which brought down the Airfrance Concorde and  in this case it appears commercial pressure was creeping in.

This delay for a unplanned runway inspection should be planned in at the Pre Flight Brief where the WX is doubtful and as we saw it looked like there was Weather to the South and to the Northeast of EGCC.

And the same goes in the case of a 'go around' this results in unsavoury remarks about how much a 'go around costs the company' hence why controllers tend to 'assist' Pilots to Vacate the Runway asap.
If Aircrew miss the taxiway very frequently! then this can cause the 'go around' and therefore moans and groans again this can be two go arounds per Morning rush hour 0630-0900 due to late vacating of the Runway.

So in this case it appears that Critical communications protocol was broken and even I conclude that it was unprofessional communications .
I would say it was a 70/30 situation.

Incidently a aeroplane burns 1 ton of fuel per engine whilst taxing and holding on a standard taxi either to J1/T1/A1 etc.
However I am not sure what the fuel burn is for that aeroplane.

Now that a lot of money being burned and then there is green issues to consider of an Aeroplane holding for longer than required, some Pilots shut down the engines and use the APU when held for long periods this saves overheating ,Fuel issues and Engine wear and tear.

Regards.


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Casper87
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« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2010, 05:01:18 PM »

Blackbox,

Whats your role at Manch?

You say exchanges like that are occuring regularly, is it purely due to aircraft getting delayed at the hold due runways inspections?

Regards,

C
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blackbox tango
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« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2010, 11:00:11 AM »

Hi Casper.
I would prefer to keep that to myself otherwise I would not be able to chat like this lol.
Only that my ear is always firmly to the ground lol. grin

Runway inspections take place after...
A,Before a Runway is to be used in Service ie Single runway operations, for example.
B, After a heavy landing, burst tyre debris,
C, Rabbit or hare or Mole /Fox being mowed down, Birdstike etc.
D, During a down poor of Rain/Snow  and after a downpoor of Rain/Snow  to determine the breaking action required ie the terms WET WET WET to prevent a overrun (like what happened  in India the other day!), and when Conditions called Low Visual Proceedures 'LVP' are in force so the deployment of the ops vehicle for a Runway or even FODDER inspection and removal on the Taxiway ie a plastic bag etc.

Note, it takes 6 minutes for a Runway inspection to be completed so it can have a knock on effect especially if ATC are launching 1 every 1 minute in peak period! give and take wake turbulance distance you can see the pressures both Aircrew and Controllers are under.
The knock on can mean Aircraft on stand, loosing their slot time.

So no wonder sometimes comments get out of hand as in the case of this example, I feel both the OPS Managers and the Air traffic contol team do a fantastic job under trying circumstances.
So a big thumbs up from me ...

On another note...
I have to say also Aircrew are still commenting on the being handed off to 'Scottish Control'  they just cannot get their heads round the change it is bizarre that the eyes up North are controling ex Manchester Sub centre areas .
However in reality it makes no difference it is just the thought of Scottish based controllers controlling out bound traffic from Liverpool and Manchester on handoff around 3,000ft QNH in the climb!.

That is all for now .
I feel a cup of tea is in order.

Regards.

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Casper87
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« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2010, 05:30:24 PM »

Bet the Scots are loving it though. Having some control over Northern England. grin

With regards to routine inspections, didn't EGLL used to take 'checker' off the runway between movements? I'm guessing that isn't 'best practice' anymore.

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rekno13
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« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2010, 04:05:20 AM »

Didn't I read somewhere about scanners being illegal in England or something?
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KenboD
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« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2010, 08:09:16 AM »

Tower's attitude was combative. However, we're all just humans - emotions creep in now and then.
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sunburn
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« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2010, 09:24:20 AM »

Didn't I read somewhere about scanners being illegal in England or something?

Scanners are not illegal. It's just illegal to listen to/rebroadcast a radio frequency in which you're not permitted to do so.
However, if you're standing next to the runway with a scanner and the cops stop you, they'll just turn a blind eye due to the numbers of aviation enthusiasts who visit airports with scanners.
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blackbox tango
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« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2010, 02:12:18 PM »

Emotions of Controllers /Aircrew alike.

Its called Human Factors and funny enough again I am on a course tomorrow covering just that very subject angry.

Mr/Mrs Sunburn, is spot on about legality of listening to Aviation transmissions.
The Interception of Communications act covers this as well as the Wireless Telegraphy act.

OFCOM the communication regulator has Officers that visit EGCC now and again from their Regional HQ  in Newton Le Willows in Lancashire.

Although entertaining hearing a argument ,a technical offence(s) may have taken place and this may have a knock on effect to anybody parked on that carpark in the future .
So bare this in mind before someone posts some audio.

Sunburn is also correct that Airport Police Officers turn a blind eye to earwigging, however I can assure you it does not go unnoticed, it depends how you behave lol you will be enjoying a cell, if you push it too far.

Having said that can you imagine 10,000 people all being locked up at IAT FAIRFORD now that would be interesting grin

Regards for now.

« Last Edit: May 27, 2010, 02:19:17 PM by blackbox tango » Logged
blackbox tango
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« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2010, 02:17:51 PM »

RE:-Scanners.

Please read the official Guidance Document.

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/radiocomms/ifi/enforcement/guidance

Regards.

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retro11
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« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2010, 05:36:36 PM »

hi ,yeah its is strange to think aircraft out of manchester being handed over to scottish but the coverage down the north sea goes as far as the amsterdam fir im up in the NE of scotland and can hear the handovers to amsterdam 123.7 comming of scottish freq 133.875 in the lardi/godos area controller side only, maybe this is the start of world domination as football was a failure good luck in SA
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sunburn
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« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2010, 06:53:51 PM »

what makes me laugh is when east midlands hands off to scottish on 133.8!
before you know it, anything above the M25 will be scottish  wink

.mark
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rekno13
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« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2010, 10:09:46 PM »

Thanks for the clarification and links about scanners in the UK
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