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Author Topic: Midair collision SW of KCHD - Chandler, AZ  (Read 29510 times)
PHXCONXrunner
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« on: October 05, 2012, 08:07:06 PM »

Just after 2PM, two Cherokees were involved in a midair 12 miles southwest of CHD.  One lost about 1/3 of its starboard wing but was able to make it to Gila Memorial Airport ~5 miles SW of CHD, and the other had the wing embedded in the port wing, and made an emergency landing at a vehicle test track 15 SW of CHD.

Audio starts on the CHD 2100Z-2130Z feed at about 7:45 in, with the Cherokee calling a mayday.  About 12 minutes into the clip the other calls in the collision, and at around 18 minutes CHD tower sends a helicopter and another Cherokee to locate the plane at the test track.

The student in the Cherokee that landed at Memorial is a very close friend of mine, and said everyone was OK.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 08:12:18 PM by PHXCONXrunner » Logged
datainmotion
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« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2012, 09:10:20 PM »

I'm logged in but not seeing the link to the audio?
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InterpreDemon
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« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2012, 10:14:54 PM »

Here you go, DataTrain:

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kchd/KCHD-Oct-05-2012-2100Z.mp3

Good listen.
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KJFK ARINC
KHPN ATIS
(KJFK) NY DEP Liberty East
HF CAR-A  3455/5550/6577/8846/11396
HF ARINC LDOC  6640/8933
HF NY VOLMET  6604

Complaints should be addressed to: City Hall
Fryy
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« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2012, 11:36:09 PM »

Attached below is the clip condensed for time. (12:08)

* KCHD_Midair_Oct-05-2012_LiveATC.net.mp3 (1427.04 KB - downloaded 5673 times.)
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InterpreDemon
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« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2012, 12:28:56 AM »

And here's the local news story:

http://www.kctv5.com/story/19749953/faa-small-planes-collide-midair-near-chandler

That Arrow is a tough little plane. Penetration stopped cold at the spar. Both were very lucky things were not just a few feet further inboard. It appears they impacted at 90 degrees relative bank to each other and my guess would be they were avoiding a head-on by both banking away to their left, Cherokee probably descending and Arrow climbing, since it appears the remains of the right wing tip of the Cherokee are on the top side of the Arrow wing.
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KJFK ARINC
KHPN ATIS
(KJFK) NY DEP Liberty East
HF CAR-A  3455/5550/6577/8846/11396
HF ARINC LDOC  6640/8933
HF NY VOLMET  6604

Complaints should be addressed to: City Hall
NoMad
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« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2012, 12:18:11 PM »

Great work by the pilots involved in the crash, the tower controller, and the pilots that helped with the search.
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InterpreDemon
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« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2012, 01:23:03 PM »

I assume you meant to say, "Great work by the pilots subsequent to the collision", right?
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KJFK ARINC
KHPN ATIS
(KJFK) NY DEP Liberty East
HF CAR-A  3455/5550/6577/8846/11396
HF ARINC LDOC  6640/8933
HF NY VOLMET  6604

Complaints should be addressed to: City Hall
NoMad
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« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2012, 08:54:41 AM »

I assume you meant to say, "Great work by the pilots subsequent to the collision", right?

That is another way wording the same thing.  Two planes hitting each other would constitute a crash as far as I'm concerned.
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InterpreDemon
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« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2012, 02:38:46 PM »

I don 't think you got my point. Whether you call it a crash or a collision is irrelevant, rather it is whether you can say "great work" preceded it... certainly they performed well afterwards, and were very, very, lucky. But for a microsecond longer reaction time and a few feet inboard of the collision point the outcome would have been very different and no amount of "great work" after the fact would have been able to change it.

I believe both aircraft had two pairs of eyes, one in each plane being those of an instructor pilot, and they were in a known practice area where "see and avoid" is paramount, so you'll have to pardon me if I do not consider two planes flying into each other in those circumstances to be "great work".
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KJFK ARINC
KHPN ATIS
(KJFK) NY DEP Liberty East
HF CAR-A  3455/5550/6577/8846/11396
HF ARINC LDOC  6640/8933
HF NY VOLMET  6604

Complaints should be addressed to: City Hall
NoMad
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« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2012, 07:19:55 PM »

Ohhhh.  I thought you were saying I was wrong for using the word crash rather than collision.

As far as piloting leading up to the collision, I'm not going to judge.  Yes there are many things we do to avoid collisions.  But nothing is infallible.  There are big ass blind spots and lots of sky to cover with your eyes.
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WilliamJSS
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« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2012, 10:30:47 PM »

Happy all turned out well
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domsaleo
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« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2012, 04:14:14 AM »

You bank to the right to avoid mid air collision. Right of way.


And here's the local news story:

http://www.kctv5.com/story/19749953/faa-small-planes-collide-midair-near-chandler

That Arrow is a tough little plane. Penetration stopped cold at the spar. Both were very lucky things were not just a few feet further inboard. It appears they impacted at 90 degrees relative bank to each other and my guess would be they were avoiding a head-on by both banking away to their left, Cherokee probably descending and Arrow climbing, since it appears the remains of the right wing tip of the Cherokee are on the top side of the Arrow wing.
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comperini
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« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2012, 10:39:45 AM »

You bank to the right to avoid mid air collision. Right of way.

Sure, if....

(1) You even realized you were about to have a mid air. If you never see the other plane, there's nothing to bank for

(2) The other plane wasn't on his right side to begin with

(3) You actually remember that rule in the split second you have to make a decision, and act on it.

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InterpreDemon
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« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2012, 01:41:54 PM »

I based my guess upon the remains of the black 28 wing tip being on the TOP of the left Arrow wing, meaning the PA28 had to be below the Arrow at the time of impact. The only way he could have been below with his right wing tip elevated would be if he was in a left bank relative to the Arrow and flying toward the Arrow.

It could very well be, in fact I would bet the final report will reveal, that neither plane saw or took action to avoid each other at all... that they were both in level flight within ten feet of the same AGL, turning in a left 30-45 deg bank and, both being low-wing planes and "below" each other, they never saw each other as their circular flight paths intersected.
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KJFK ARINC
KHPN ATIS
(KJFK) NY DEP Liberty East
HF CAR-A  3455/5550/6577/8846/11396
HF ARINC LDOC  6640/8933
HF NY VOLMET  6604

Complaints should be addressed to: City Hall
ridejumpfly
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« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2012, 05:22:44 PM »

You bank to the right to avoid mid air collision. Right of way.

Sure, if....

(1) You even realized you were about to have a mid air. If you never see the other plane, there's nothing to bank for

(2) The other plane wasn't on his right side to begin with

(3) You actually remember that rule in the split second you have to make a decision, and act on it.

Well said! Right of way rules don't cover every scenario.
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comperini
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« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2012, 05:35:13 PM »

! Right of way rules don't cover every scenario.

Exactly.. for example, in this scenario, the descending pilot was probably better off turning left:
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NoMad
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« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2012, 12:12:59 AM »

^^^ That scenario has nothing to do with right of way rules.  It is simple stupidity.  Plane with the camera was there for the purpose of filming the other plane.  Their entire purpose in life was to stare at the other plane.  They were looking right at it when they hit.  Plain old careless and reckless piloting.  
« Last Edit: October 15, 2012, 12:09:38 PM by NoMad » Logged
ridejumpfly
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« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2012, 01:17:18 AM »

just like on a motorcycle, you go where you look!
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ZippinZim
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« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2012, 05:43:23 PM »

I am having trouble understanding the wisdom of having what sounds like three aircraft (two helicopters and a Cherokee) vectored to search for the Bonanza.  I kept wondering if the controller was thinking to himself "what have I done?  I'm about to cause a secondary mid-air".  The controller watched the Bonanza descend at an apparently controlled rate.  Why not simply call local emergency crews to the scene rather than vectoring aircraft together whose pilots have probably not been trained to fly search patterns?  Am I being overly cautious?
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ridejumpfly
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« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2012, 09:55:23 PM »

I am having trouble understanding the wisdom of having what sounds like three aircraft (two helicopters and a Cherokee) vectored to search for the Bonanza.  I kept wondering if the controller was thinking to himself "what have I done?  I'm about to cause a secondary mid-air".  The controller watched the Bonanza descend at an apparently controlled rate.  Why not simply call local emergency crews to the scene rather than vectoring aircraft together whose pilots have probably not been trained to fly search patterns?  Am I being overly cautious?

Yes. The aircraft searching were all under his control. The planes that had the mid air were not. The local services were called but having aircraft from above search for the accident aircraft can locate where exactly they are in order to get to the occupants faster. Almost every time there is an event like this multiple pilots volunteer to help.
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Z06_Mir
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« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2012, 01:01:42 PM »

N82044 had a very experienced CFII on board who is actually one of the instruction standardization guys at their company. The pilot of 8115Q had an instrument student as well as the chief CFII on board and both of those aircraft belong to the same company. Imagine hearing you're co-worker was just in a midair. I think that 044's CFII's instrument student was in 15Q on a stage check too. I was actually on takeoff roll but aborted because I couldn't fly knowing that whole incident happened when I knew them. It wasn't a Bonanza that they were looking for either, it was an Arrow. And the reason they were asked to look for it is because that's all desert out there and they needed a location to send emergency crews, notice they lost radar on him at like 1800 feet and ground is 1200 feet or so. It's easy to make judgements when you weren't there.
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