Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
October 30, 2014, 01:35:00 PM
Home Help Login Register      
News: NEW Follow LiveATC updates on Twitter and Facebook


+  LiveATC Discussion Forums
|-+  Air Traffic Monitoring
| |-+  Aviation Audio Clips (Moderators: dave, RonR)
| | |-+  N223CD SR-20 Crash Chicago 11/26/2011 audio
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Go Down Print
Author Topic: N223CD SR-20 Crash Chicago 11/26/2011 audio  (Read 17526 times)
Wolfala
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 33



« on: November 29, 2011, 12:36:33 AM »

VFR into IMC - non instrument rated pilot. You put this guy in this same situation in any aircraft, from Piper Cub, Cessna, to Mooney, and the result will be the same. Use this as an example of what not to do gentlemen.

9:57
3cd: "223cd"
female voice: "you are on unicom, did you want to talk also to the tower?"
3cd: "tower please"
female voice: "ok you need to switch to 120.9"

3cd: "dupage tower 223cd"
tower: "223cd, dupage tower"
3cd: "coming in let me see here.... visual flight rules uhh was wondering if we were going to available for landing"
tower: "223cd, the field is IFR, uhh say intentions"
3cd: "dupage tower, I just flew over your field I appologize, I didn't realize I was going that fast"
tower: "223cd, the field is IFR, say your intentions"
3cd: "if it's IFR we are going to move on down, I was just checking, I went down to about 2k and could see pretty well so I was just going to see if you are available"
<silence>
male voice: "are you (perhaps he meant is he) up flying around somewhere right now?"
male voice2: "yah and the tower is trying to key him in ya know, saying say your intentions is there anything I can do for you..."
male voice: "jump in the 'mustkateer' and lead him down to the ground"
male voice2: "tower is trying to do everything but put words in his mouth"
male voice: "that's exactly why they say you know you get stuck in the clouds and you don't have IFR training your life expectentency is like 3 minutes"
male voice2: "roger that.."
male voice: "but no big deal"


<seems like tower freq is silent, this is odd, maybe the tapes missed it>


<lots of microphone clicks, perhaps it is 3cd thinking of the right words to say..."




10:01am 3cd: "i am trying to stay uhh"
tower: "3cd do you still have the field in site"
3cd: negative we lost it, i am going out to north and make a straight in if that is OK
tower: 3cd roger, the field is a suggested heading of 200
3cd: roger, 200


10:04 tower: "3cd say intentions"
3cd: "I think I am about tempted.... is there a better field with better visibility as I don't want to get in there and get stuck all day"
tower: "3cd, do you want to talk to chicago approach because they can help with vectors or are you....
3cd: "no I think I am ok doing it either way but uhh I was just uhh do you have a uhh a later airport or a report today"
tower: "3cd, maintain vfr standby......"


10:05
tower: "3cd, chicago exec the wx there vis of 10, ceiling 1,500k overcast, vfr right now"
3cd: "roger that, what is there code"
tower: "PWK"
3cd: "PWK, rgr thank you again"

tower: "3cd, uhh are you familiar with the uhh class bravo..."
3cd: "you broke up there at the end"
tower: "3cd, are you familiar with the area at all"
3cd: "I did my uhh training there with american flyers"
tower: "3cd, rgr, would you like to talk to approach, they can give you suggested headigs and help you get in"
3cd: "I am still trying to descide if I should land at dupage or not, do you think that is a good idea or not?"
tower: "3cd, are you currently vfr right now?"

tower: "3cd, are you IN THE CLOUDS or are you CLEAR OF THE CLOUDS?"
3cd: "I am actually uhh puhh (he is nervous you can tell now to tell truth) i am in and out of the clouds right now"
tower: "3cd, roger"

( i bet tower is phoning chi approach right now about this situation)

tower: "3cd, are you IFR qualified?"
3cd: "I am in IFR training, and I let this get around me"

tower: "(heartbeat goes up!) rgr the altimeter is 29.86, I am going to call departure and tell them you are coming to them and they will give you vectors to dupage OK?"
3cd: "roger that"




10:08
tower: "3cd, dupage tower"
3cd: "dupage tower"
tower: "cirrus 3cd contact chi dept on 120.55"
tower: "cirrus 3cd, dupage..."
3cd: "3cd, 122.055 rgr"
tower: "negative 120.55"
3cd: "roger, 120.55"



10:10
tower: "cirrus 3cd, dupage tower..."

(no liveatc exists for 120.55 that I see...)


10:12
tower: "cirrus 3cd, dupage tower..."



Logged
N53020
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 17


« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2011, 03:30:29 AM »

Wow who goes into IFR Conditions under VFR. I'm sorry but if the clouds are below 1,500 then no flying for me. Apparently this guy wanted to didn't get the weather and ended up crashing.
Logged
notaperfectpilot
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 237


Student pilot


WWW
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2011, 07:46:26 AM »

Wow! Sounds like that pilot couldn't
A) make up his mind what he actually wanted
B)he couldn't make it clear what he wanted even if he knew what he wanted
Logged
weekendwarrior
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4



« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2011, 09:03:06 AM »

1. Autopilot ON
2. 121.5
3. "HELP ME"

Logged
flyflyfly
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 107



« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2011, 09:26:28 AM »

Wow, he was VFR, why take such risks of flying into clouds - so unnecessary. He also had three young folks aboard - all killed. So sad.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/9078032-418/four-killed-in-crystal-lake-plane-crash.html
Logged
GSCFI
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2


FAA Gold Seal CFI/ ATP/ FAASTeam Rep.


« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2011, 10:38:19 AM »

Agreed, It can happen in any aircraft, but it was a Cirrus.  No offense to you at all, but I do not like those airplanes.  Why you may ask?  West Valley.  WVFC puts customer service on top of safety and that is why I never worked for them.
 I remember one time at Cal Air I once had a potentional renter come in the door.  In four hour he could not complete FAR 91.103.  My reputation went around the bay and especially at WVFC as the ass hole instructor that wont let people fly.  Mean while they sign people off to rent their airplanes that should not be flying.  I remember one instance where they had a renter in a Cirrus crash in the side of a mountain.  The staff and other instructors did NOT understand the cause of the accident.  The cause of the accident... ADM.  The pilot had all the information available to him to make the go/ no go decision.  He should have stayed on the ground and try again tomorrow.  But this is the mentality of WVFC.
Logged
comperini
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 12


WWW
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2011, 10:57:28 AM »

The guy didn't seem to have very good radio/communication skills. And...


3cd: "I think I am about tempted.... is there a better field with better visibility as I don't want to get in there and get stuck all day"


Really? He doesn't want to be inconvinienced by having to be stuck at Dupage "all day", so he chooses death instead? Good ADM.
Logged
dave
Site Founder
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3665



WWW
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2011, 11:03:39 AM »

120.55 is not covered since the transmitter is not near O'Hare and we don't have a receiver near that transmitter (still not quite sure where it is)

Very sad story - as a pilot, these stories always hit home hard.

Logged
GSCFI
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2


FAA Gold Seal CFI/ ATP/ FAASTeam Rep.


« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2011, 03:05:46 PM »

@ comperini
you are 100% correct.  Very poor ADM. 
Let us remember the # 1 Cause of fatal accidents in Aviation "Continued VFR flight in Instrument Meteorological Conditions."
Logged
VampyreGTX
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 60



WWW
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2011, 03:38:22 PM »

Why I always like to provide a link to my blog post below:

http://www.aspiringpilots.com/the-aspiring-pilot/2010/10/178-seconds-to-live-.html

Something EVERY non-ifr rated (or non-current) pilot should watch before continuing into IFR...
Logged

comperini
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 12


WWW
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2011, 03:41:03 PM »

The video has been removed?
Logged
VampyreGTX
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 60



WWW
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2011, 04:09:58 PM »

The video has been removed?


Realized it right after I posted the reply above. I've located the AOPA ASF's actual video and update the blog post. Sorry!
Logged

Wolfala
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 33



« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2011, 07:44:33 PM »

Agreed, It can happen in any aircraft, but it was a Cirrus.  No offense to you at all, but I do not like those airplanes.  Why you may ask?  West Valley.  WVFC puts customer service on top of safety and that is why I never worked for them.
 I remember one time at Cal Air I once had a potentional renter come in the door.  In four hour he could not complete FAR 91.103.  My reputation went around the bay and especially at WVFC as the ass hole instructor that wont let people fly.  Mean while they sign people off to rent their airplanes that should not be flying.  I remember one instance where they had a renter in a Cirrus crash in the side of a mountain.  The staff and other instructors did NOT understand the cause of the accident.  The cause of the accident... ADM.  The pilot had all the information available to him to make the go/ no go decision.  He should have stayed on the ground and try again tomorrow.  But this is the mentality of WVFC.

No worries man. Were well aware that the pilots are killing themselves - the issue isn't with COPA members since participation correlates with a lower accident rate. But the second hand owners that buy and or the flying club guys where the transition training and deep systems knowledge isn't emphasized are a huge problem. 

Here is a perspective that we seem to misunderstand.  While Cirrus losses are no worse than comparable aircraft they are no better either.  Comparable to these guys means performance, utilization, and complexity, but comparable to an underwriter also includes cost.  Cirrus values are very high compared to “comparable” aircraft so even if Cirrus losses are similar in quantity, they can be vastly different in cost to the insurance company. 
 
Here is where the disconnect happens…one of my and Rick's favorite tag lines is to quote Jim Anderson of Starr Aviation  “Pull CAPS!  I would rather keep you as a customer than deal with your estate”.  For some of us this means that underwriters want us to pull CAPS instead of trying to prevent the accident altogether, (VFR into IMC undoubtedly being the most preventable) but in fact it is much simpler than that.  The underwriters would prefer you to not have a loss at all, but if you must do so then make it as cheap as possible.  Fatalities are a guaranteed liability limit loss plus whatever damage the aircraft suffers.  If a loss is inevitable then they would rather avoid fatalities and pay for the lesser expensive damage to the aircraft, keep a customer who will continue paying premium, and recover some of their loss than to pay the full liability limit and aircraft value to the estate with no chance of recovering any of the loss.  It is a simple matter of economics. 
 
Fatal losses are the most costly, but all losses affect the bottom line.  This mentality of pull the CAPS and hand the keys to the insurance company will only slow the inevitable rate increases and possible loss of obtainable coverage if the overall loss numbers do not improve.  Until PREVENTION becomes the focus and we stop the horseshit of guys:

1. In Florida doing aileron rolls at 50 feet
2. Drivers in Texas not being competent enough to hand fly an approach and going missed twice where it's 800 feet and everyone is getting in (Some see CAPS pull and he'd be alive, and i see "if he had just flown the approach properly all would still be alive”.  He executed a missed approach 2 times because he could not pick up the glide slope on the ILS…so, make it a localizer approach and still break out above minimums...
3. Our Euro buddies scud running into every piece cumulous rock there is...

...and overall losses improve there will be no leveling or decrease in the insurance premiums as the loss ratios will continue to increase…again, simple economics.  The saving grace for Cirrus insurance in recent years has been the continued soft market with record low rates and underwriters vying for any piece of business they can add to the books.  This market will change, underwriter requirements will tighten, non profitable business will be trimmed from the books, and rates will go up.  Risks with the best loss ratios will be on the backside of the increase curve and loss ratios don’t care whether CAPS was pulled or not…simply how much income was generate compared to out-go.




Logged
aviator_06
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 255



WWW
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2011, 03:03:43 PM »

Looks like the Cirrus is replacing the "V-tail doctor killer" (Bonanza)
Logged

uplink
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 91

PPL ASEL, SOCAL AREA


WWW
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2012, 06:08:34 PM »

Probable cause released...
http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20111126X22009&key=1
Narrative....
http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20111126X22009&ntsbno=CEN12FA083&akey=1
Logged

Pages: [1] 2 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2011, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!