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Author Topic: Nervous Student  (Read 13734 times)
CCCPSpy
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« on: July 17, 2005, 05:37:14 PM »

This year old clip is from what I guess is a student pilot landing. The controller at KLWM didn't seem too happy with him.
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Jason
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« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2005, 06:55:16 PM »

The controller said "No Problem." If they were upset I assure you they wouldn't say that.  LWM is a contract tower also...from personal experience I find that ATC from contract towers can be both great as well as not the best or clearest to understand either.
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davolijj
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« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2005, 09:56:24 PM »

This scenario happens at VFR towers more than people know.  huh

BTW, Federal contract towers and Non-Federal towers use the same procedures and phraseology as their counterparts in the FAA.
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dave
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« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2005, 05:53:10 AM »

Quote from: HPNPilot1200
The controller said "No Problem."  If they were upset I assure you they wouldn't say that.  LWM is a contract tower so the ATC isn't sometimes the best or clearest to understand either.


I fly into LWM frequently and can't say I've found the controllers hard to understand or deficient in their controlling.  Same at KORH.  Both contract towers...doesn't make a difference really.  It all boils down to individual controllers, not whether they're contract or FAA.  

-dave
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Jason
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« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2005, 09:14:54 AM »

Quote from: dave
Quote from: HPNPilot1200
The controller said "No Problem."  If they were upset I assure you they wouldn't say that.  LWM is a contract tower so the ATC isn't sometimes the best or clearest to understand either.


I fly into LWM frequently and can't say I've found the controllers hard to understand or deficient in their controlling.  Same at KORH.  Both contract towers...doesn't make a difference really.  It all boils down to individual controllers, not whether they're contract or FAA.  

-dave


Quote from: dave
I fly into LWM frequently and can't say


Did you really mean can't say? I think they are either terrible or great. They can sometimes be fickle depending on controller. I have been told a lot of them come from the Navy.
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BigOkie
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« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2005, 09:17:14 AM »

Quote from: HPNPilot1200
The controller said "No Problem."  If they were upset I assure you they wouldn't say that.  LWM is a contract tower so the ATC isn't sometimes the best or clearest to understand either.


I hate to be crass here, but I have a really difficult time understanding why people do the following:

Contract controllers=substandard controllers.

It just ain't the case.  These guys HAVE to be FAA certified, just like all other controllers.  They all attend school in OKC or wherever.  The ONLY difference is that they don't work for the FAA directly.

An acquaintance of mine through VATSIM works at St Louis Regional as a tower controller.  ALN IS a contract tower, and I think their controllers are as good, maybe even better, than their FAA counterparts.

Just because they don't work for the FAA doesn't mean they didn't pay their dues.  A lot of the contract controllers are former FAA controllers who just went to different locations that happend to have contracts instead of FAA controllers.
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davolijj
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« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2005, 09:38:34 AM »

Quote from: HPNPilot1200
The controller said "No Problem."  If they were upset I assure you they wouldn't say that.  LWM is a contract tower so the ATC isn't sometimes the best or clearest to understand either.


No offense HPN but I think you should gather a little more information before asserting such a bold statement of contract tower controllers.  Need I remind you that your favorite controller at PHL, whom you've written several posts about, works for the FAA not a contractor.
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dave
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« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2005, 10:19:28 AM »

Quote from: HPNPilot1200
Quote from: dave
Quote from: HPNPilot1200
The controller said "No Problem."  If they were upset I assure you they wouldn't say that.  LWM is a contract tower so the ATC isn't sometimes the best or clearest to understand either.


I fly into LWM frequently and can't say I've found the controllers hard to understand or deficient in their controlling.  Same at KORH.  Both contract towers...doesn't make a difference really.  It all boils down to individual controllers, not whether they're contract or FAA.  

-dave


Quote from: dave
I fly into LWM frequently and can't say


did you really mean can't say?  I think they are terrible.  A lot of them come from the Navy.


Yes, I really meant what I wrote.  I have never had an issue with a controller at that airport or any other airport known to have contract controllers.

Yours was a broad, bold statement that should be backed with solid facts.  Hearsay is a dangerous thing.

-Dave
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Jason
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« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2005, 11:02:18 AM »

I'll back up my statements.  I was at an FAA Saftey Seminar in the Volenteer Miry Brook FD where the Tower Chief, John Stevens talked and confirmed most of the controllers are from the Navy.

I was instructed to position and hold on runway 26 a few months back.  There were 4 people in line behind me.  No landing traffic.  I had expected a takeoff clearance when I got into position...still waiting after a minute went by..."Danbury Tower, 93X, still in position 26, 4 guys behind me" "93X, roger"

I had to call another 3 times before I recieved takeoff clearance.  This all happened in about 10 minutes...sitting on the runway..wasting time, gas, and $$.  The tower never explained why the delay...I doubt they were talking to N90 for 10 minutes.

I was inbound 10 NE of DXR with info Lima.  They told me to report a mid-field, right downwind.  "Report mid-field right d/w, 93X"  "93X!!!  Readback you will report at midfield right d/w!!"  "Tower, 93X will report mid-field right d/w, you must have blocked us off before."

I was on a straight into DXR on a 10 nm final, inbound from INDDY intersection which is about 10 to the east of DXR.  They told me to report a 3nm straight in.  As instructed, I called in 3 mile straight in-26.  "93X, roger"...."93X, say your position!"  "93X, about 3/4 mile final"  "93X, try and pick up inbound speed please"  "93X"  "93X, is that you on 1/4 mile final???"  "Affirmative, we called at 3nm, and 3/4nm, and no landing clearance"  "93X, cleared to land"

They have some major flaws and is it EXTREMEMLY dependant on the controller.  There are many guys that are REALLY good and many that are not.  It is also based on the training and past experience the controller(s) have had.  Like I said, it is extremely based on the controller.  Some are very expereinced and have great situational awareness, but it becomes dangerous when they do not.  MidWest has some great ATCT's out there.  From my experience, in the last few years it has gotten extremely better.


I'd like to appoligize to Dave, BigOkie, davolijj, and any other readers.  My previous post should not have been said unless I had included some proof of my point.  I regret it very much.

Sorry if I did not provide enough evidence in my previous post  cry
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Jason
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« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2005, 11:05:29 AM »

Quote from: BigOkie
Quote from: HPNPilot1200
The controller said "No Problem."  If they were upset I assure you they wouldn't say that.  LWM is a contract tower so the ATC isn't sometimes the best or clearest to understand either.


I hate to be crass here, but I have a really difficult time understanding why people do the following:

Contract controllers=substandard controllers.

It just ain't the case.  These guys HAVE to be FAA certified, just like all other controllers.  They all attend school in OKC or wherever.  The ONLY difference is that they don't work for the FAA directly.

An acquaintance of mine through VATSIM works at St Louis Regional as a tower controller.  ALN IS a contract tower, and I think their controllers are as good, maybe even better, than their FAA counterparts.

Just because they don't work for the FAA doesn't mean they didn't pay their dues.  A lot of the contract controllers are former FAA controllers who just went to different locations that happend to have contracts instead of FAA controllers.


You're right.  My statement was too broad.  I meant for the statement to only apply to specific controllers who man contract ATCT's.

I have to say that they are getting better though....It has improoved dramatically within the last year or so.
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davolijj
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HPN
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2005, 11:21:15 AM »

HPN, no worries bud. You didn't hurt any feelings here. I just felt the blanket statement about ALL contract tower was a bit bold and I would have been remiss not to respond.

I will have my guard up however next time I fly into DXR.  shocked
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« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2005, 01:47:26 PM »

Quote from: CCCPSpy
This year old clip is from what I guess is a student pilot landing. The controller at KLWM didn't seem too happy with him.


This type of slip whereby the VFR pilot fails to give a position report at a class D airport happens pretty frequently, at least in the Northeast US.  Pilots of all experience levels can and do make this mistake, since often the report is required at a non-standard fix, such as "report a 2 mile final," "report mid-field left downwind," or "report abeam the numbers," a report that requires extra diligence by the pilot.
 
Given that the pilot admitted he was practicing an ILS approach, it would be safe to say that he was not a student pilot.  Smiley  Smiley
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BigOkie
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« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2005, 11:44:12 PM »

Quote from: HPNPilot1200
Quote from: BigOkie
Quote from: HPNPilot1200
The controller said "No Problem."  If they were upset I assure you they wouldn't say that.  LWM is a contract tower so the ATC isn't sometimes the best or clearest to understand either.


I hate to be crass here, but I have a really difficult time understanding why people do the following:

Contract controllers=substandard controllers.

It just ain't the case.  These guys HAVE to be FAA certified, just like all other controllers.  They all attend school in OKC or wherever.  The ONLY difference is that they don't work for the FAA directly.

An acquaintance of mine through VATSIM works at St Louis Regional as a tower controller.  ALN IS a contract tower, and I think their controllers are as good, maybe even better, than their FAA counterparts.

Just because they don't work for the FAA doesn't mean they didn't pay their dues.  A lot of the contract controllers are former FAA controllers who just went to different locations that happend to have contracts instead of FAA controllers.


You're right.  My statement was too broad.  I meant for the statement to only apply to Mid-West ATC services which provides the contract tower personell in most of New England.

I have to say that they are getting better though....It has improoved within the last year or so.


Midwest ALSO provides for KALN...maybe it's a local thing???
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CCCPSpy
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« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2005, 04:16:32 PM »

I knew the ATC controller wasn't furious. I think the tone of her voice suggests she was annoyed. I found the pilot's stuttering apology the funniest part of the clip, which is why I saved it and eventually decided to share it.

I knew that LWM is contracted because my brother was a flight instructor for Eagle East for about a year. He has met the controllers before and said that they do get a lot of pilot mistakes like that and find it stressful.

My brother currently flies for Miami Air, a charter airline and about last month had a flight from Fort Drum NY to Bucharest Romania. He said he had a very hard time understanding the controllers and their thick accents (probably a lot less clear than the Lawrence controllers.)  Smiley
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expalman
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« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2008, 07:11:23 PM »

This year old clip is from what I guess is a student pilot landing. The controller at KLWM didn't seem too happy with him.

Don't think this was a "Student Pilot" practicing an ILS Approach!!!  This was a certified Private Pilot and he definitely should have known better.   What he did was dangerous, but the controller said "No Problem" probably because there was no-one in the pattern.
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