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Author Topic: Cessna blown over at BOS  (Read 21623 times)

Offline Hollis

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Cessna blown over at BOS
« on: September 05, 2007, 02:47:30 PM »
9/04/07 @ 1800Z

A Cessna 172, N445AF, took a jet blast that disabled the a/c.



Offline RayZor

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Re: Cessna blown over at BOS
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2007, 04:13:01 PM »
just curious, who is responsible for this (controller, airline pilot, cessna pilot)?  I guess all parties are to blame to at least a certain extent, but on whom does the most responsibility fall when it comes to avoiding jet blast?

Offline cobra64

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Re: Cessna blown over at BOS
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2007, 05:36:15 PM »
pretty sure the pilot in command is responsible for safe operations of the plane he is in

Offline KSYR-pjr

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Re: Cessna blown over at BOS
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2007, 06:25:06 PM »
just curious, who is responsible for this (controller, airline pilot, cessna pilot)?

The Cessna pilot.

Offline jonnevin

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Re: Cessna blown over at BOS
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2007, 06:53:16 PM »
Hang on though... Of course the Cessna PIC is responsible for his plane. But at the same time, the jet pilot is responsible for safe operation (including the effects of his plane), and the air traffic controller is responsible for plane movement on the field.

At KSNA there have been a number of high profile accidents involving GA aircraft landing on 19L and crashing due to wake turbulence from aircraft on 19R (the founders of In-N-Out Burger were killed in this type of accident there if I remember correctly). I do not believe the NTSB found the GA PIC at fault for these and that is a similar scenario (of course taking place in the air instead of on the ground)

Also, we of course do not know the specifics of the KBOS incident.  :lol:
« Last Edit: September 05, 2007, 07:01:20 PM by jonnevin »

Offline Jason

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Re: Cessna blown over at BOS
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2007, 08:31:27 PM »
Without knowing exact specifics for this particular incident, it's difficult to accurately say.  From a legal standpoint, I would make a good prediction that both PICs would be responsible (FAR §91.13 - Careless or reckless operation).

Offline KSYR-pjr

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Re: Cessna blown over at BOS
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2007, 08:37:39 PM »
I have been to Boston many times as an Angel Flight pilot in both a C172 and a Bonanza V35 and have taxied behind B747 and B767s.   Jet blast avoidance is the responsibility of the pilot of the trailing aircraft, but I would stop short of claiming that being damaged by jet blast is considered "careless and reckless operation."

ATC will issue a warning about jet blast to smaller trailing aircraft ("Bonanza XXX, follow the B767 crossing from right to left in front of you, then follow that aircraft to runway 22L. Caution jet blast from the 767."), but that is the extent of their responsibility.  The airline pilots will do their part by not firewalling the throttles, but getting one of those monsters moving from a dead stop requires power. 

Offline Hollis

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Re: Cessna blown over at BOS
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2007, 08:44:47 PM »
This may help -

Offline Hollis

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Re: Cessna blown over at BOS
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2007, 08:53:09 PM »
My preceeding post was unreadable I guess.
FAA report said:
'AIRCRAFT, WHILE TAXIING, WAS TIPPED ON IT'S SIDE BY THE JET BLAST
OF A BOEING 767 THAT WAS TURNING OFF ANOTHER TAXIWAY, BOSTON, MA
Damage: Substantial.'

Offline tag18

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Re: Cessna blown over at BOS
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2007, 09:53:08 PM »
There are times when it's difficult to maintain appropriate separation from a larger jet while taxiing at some airports. Doing so may obstruct alley's, taxiways, etc. Not to mention a 500 foot gap can irritate controllers if they're having a bad day. With that said, jet blast is exceptionally risky if either aircraft isn't "in-line" with the other; meaning the jet blast doesn't hit the light aircraft "on the nose"

With that said, I always give turbojets a good amount of room when I'm in a light aircraft.

It's occasionally worthwhile to ask ground to request the proceeding aircraft use "minimum breakaway power" to reduce the jet blast. This is also useful in the winter when there is ice/snow on the taxiways, to avoid flying frozen debris.

Offline Jason

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Re: Cessna blown over at BOS
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2007, 10:01:43 PM »
I have been to Boston many times as an Angel Flight pilot in both a C172 and a Bonanza V35 and have taxied behind B747 and B767s.   Jet blast avoidance is the responsibility of the pilot of the trailing aircraft, but I would stop short of claiming that being damaged by jet blast is considered "careless and reckless operation."

I would too, but I'm thinking in the FAA's shoes (thought I greatly dislike doing that).  It very much depends on the FSDO since each one has a different interpretation of practically every reg there is on the book.  From what I've seen and heard from an aviation lawyer, quite frequently the FAA will tack on the 91.13 violation for some operations which you and I would find far from careless/reckless.

From a practical standpoint, you're exactly correct.  The Cessna pilot should have maintained proper separation, anticipating the possibility of even the slightest jet blast.  We do this all the time where I fly out of, KHPN, due to the numerous Airbus, RJ, and bizjet traffic.

Regards,
« Last Edit: September 05, 2007, 10:03:47 PM by Jason »

Offline MathFox

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Re: Cessna blown over at BOS
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2007, 01:39:16 PM »
FAA report said:
'AIRCRAFT, WHILE TAXIING, WAS TIPPED ON IT'S SIDE BY THE JET BLAST
OF A BOEING 767 THAT WAS TURNING OFF ANOTHER TAXIWAY, BOSTON, MA
Damage: Substantial.'

I tried to picture what could have happened... Just guessing from the minimal description above.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2007, 01:41:10 PM by MathFox »