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Author Topic: Northwest flight overshoots KMSP any audio?  (Read 17229 times)
JesseFSD
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« on: October 23, 2009, 03:30:25 PM »

Did anyone capture any audio form this day?

http://www.cnn.com/2009/TRAVEL/10/23/airliner.fly.by/index.html


Should be interesting when the NTSB listens to the CVR.
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captray
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« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2009, 04:07:31 PM »

Just last week it was reported that 'pilots who nap in the cockpit are more alert during the landing phase' These guys were just doing their best to comply!

I'll bet they were REALLY alert for the landing and for some time after that.
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flygirltammy
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« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2009, 05:25:44 PM »

Just last week it was reported that 'pilots who nap in the cockpit are more alert during the landing phase' These guys were just doing their best to comply!

I'll bet they were REALLY alert for the landing and for some time after that.

LOL!!! Yes. I'm sure. Alert enough to probably barely sleep that night. I am extremely interested to hear what the investigation turns up. I used to be a pilot crew scheduler for an airline, so the 1st thing I thought was fatigue due to a short rest period or something. But they had like 19 hours crew rest prior to that leg. I wonder if there could possibly be a good excuse here.
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joeyb747
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« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2009, 07:21:53 PM »

Did anyone capture any audio form this day?

http://www.cnn.com/2009/TRAVEL/10/23/airliner.fly.by/index.html


Should be interesting when the NTSB listens to the CVR.

Not sure about the audio, but lots more info on this incident in the other forum...

http://www.liveatc.net/forums/listener-forum/northwest-pilots-miss-landing-strip/

Only issue with the CVR is it only records the last thirty minutes of activity. So all you would get is the landing portion.
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« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2009, 07:29:25 PM »

Well the excuse they gave sure isnt a good one! Short of communication failure or mechanical failure, I dont think there is a good excuse. If they fell asleep, they should come clean because its gonna back up what people are saying about the hours pilots must endure and the arguement for better regulation of their hours. It might actually save their jobs. It looks like they arent gonna get anything from the CVR, so the "we lost track of time and where we were" defense is what they will go with. Thats as bad as falling asleep.
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flygirltammy
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« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2009, 11:55:33 PM »

I'm pretty sure there is no reasonable excuse, but I didn't want to jump to conclusions so soon. I do think that losing situational awareness like that is probably just as bad as falling asleep, though. I just don't see how losing track of time and position could happen with all the resources they had on that plane (unless, like you said, mechanical or communications failure).
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 12:06:15 AM by flygirltammy » Logged

craigs1001
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« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2009, 11:52:52 PM »

I don't buy for one second they were discussing policy no more than Marcus Schrenker had a windscreen implosion last January.  If they were not asleep, no comm problems, what else causes you to lose track of time...I mean a lot of time? Leaves a lot to imagination eh? I'm just saying...... shocked
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joeyb747
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« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2009, 09:40:55 AM »

Speculation is they never changed frequencies off Denver Center. Mini Center had company aircraft reach the airplane on Denver Centers frequency.
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« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2009, 11:12:27 AM »

I'll buy the fact they probably forgot to switch frequencies. Maybe thats when they were having their heated discussion. But that still doesnt answer question as to why they overflew MSP. At some point they shouldve realized they were nearing the time for descent and they werent talking to anyone. As Tammy said, they had plenty of resources to tell them where they were. They obviously werent lost because they found their way back. Their story has too many holes in it.
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sykocus
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« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2009, 02:59:37 PM »

Speculation is they never changed frequencies off Denver Center. Mini Center had company aircraft reach the airplane on Denver Centers frequency.

But still you don't fly 100+ mile past your destination just because you're on the wrong frequency. If they were aware of what was going on around them, there things they would have done before they flew all the way to and then past MSP at their cruising altitude.
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joeyb747
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« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2009, 06:04:42 PM »

Speculation is they never changed frequencies off Denver Center. Mini Center had company aircraft reach the airplane on Denver Centers frequency.

But still you don't fly 100+ mile past your destination just because you're on the wrong frequency. If they were aware of what was going on around them, there things they would have done before they flew all the way to and then past MSP at their cruising altitude.

I agree. Something is being covered up here. Read this line from an AP article I linked to in the other forum, but unfortunately is not available anymore:

"But in an interview with The Associated Press two days after he and a colleague blew past their destination as air traffic controllers tried frantically to reach them, pilot Richard Cole would not say just what it was that led to them to forget to land Flight 188."
« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 06:06:15 PM by joeyb747 » Logged

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N9IIT
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« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2009, 10:05:08 PM »

It has come out they were off headset and looking at their laptops and discussing flight schedules and missed MSP

They'll be busted back to regional turboprops soon....
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KASWspotter
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« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2009, 10:52:30 PM »

They will most likely be fired unless the pilots union can save them. Read an article that quoted the airline policy and how use of laptops and non aviation related material was grounds for termination. Not a big deal being on the laptop discussing schedules and such although its against airline policy. No different than reading the POH and studying the aircraft systems. Big deal is that they totally lost situational awareness and missed MSP by 150 miles. Does anyone else find it strange that the pilots are actually interacting and defending themselves through the media?
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flygirltammy
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« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2009, 06:44:00 PM »

I laughed to myself as soon as I heard the part about the crew scheduling system was involved somehow because even before this revelation, I thought "crew scheduling will be blamed in some way" (it can be an unpleasant relationship between crew scheduling and the crews sometimes).

But, I digress. Seriously, I don't know what to think of it. On one hand, yes they made a huge stupid mistake. We're human. That happens. BUT, on the other hand, this was soooo avoidable. This was just plain negligence for more than an hour. It wasn't a simple 'oops' kind of thing. It wasn't just one little thing they did wrong. They made multiple lapses in judgement for more than an hour.

I'm not understanding how this is defendable. Do I feel sorry for these guys who will probably be lucky to fly with a regional now? Sure. But, come on! If this had turned into an accident with even so much as a sprained ankle, I don't think people would be so ready to forgive or defend.

EDIT:  Doh! I just read that their licenses have been revoked. A significant portion of life's work gone.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2009, 06:50:14 PM by flygirltammy » Logged

Junior P
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« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2009, 01:27:29 AM »

So what happens now? can they appeal to get their licences back? Its a real shame to lose your career because of their first career mistake even tho it was big..... cant they just suspend them for 3 months or put them around a desk. WOW im sad that they lost everything they worked so hard for!!
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swillis34
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« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2009, 01:38:04 PM »

Okay, so I'm NOT a pilot........ but I do fly a lot on Flight Simulator. Even on a game, if I minimize the window mid-flight, I constantly check back and forth to make sure I'm okay in terms of frequencies, distance, speed, etc.....

These guys are flying a real aircraft with the information surrounding them. You'd think that they would check the instruments, GPS, etc. every once in a while. Especially after going without communication for almost an hour.

I don't recommend doing this, but if you drive your car, and are reading a map or--god forbid--texting while you're driving, don't you glance up regularly? Transfer the same principle to flying... don't you glance up regularly to check your stuff?
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otto_pilot
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« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2009, 03:41:18 PM »

Hey backseat flight sim pilot lets not monday morning quarterback them. For flip sake they lost there entire life career ect. They as well as just about everyone else know the freaked up. Let them alone
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tower: right delta ground point niner
pilot: Uh tower did you mean to say ground point 8 or do you want us to try them on point 9.
tower: Oh yea point 8 would work better, wouldnt it
joeyb747
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« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2009, 08:10:09 PM »

So what happens now? can they appeal to get their licences back? Its a real shame to lose your career because of their first career mistake even tho it was big..... cant they just suspend them for 3 months or put them around a desk. WOW im sad that they lost everything they worked so hard for!!

"According to Laura Brown, FAA spokesperson, "The emergency revocations cite violations of a number of Federal Aviation Regulations. Those include failing to comply with air traffic control instructions and clearances and operating carelessly and recklessly."

The revocations take effect immediately. The two veteran pilots, who have logged over 31,000 flight hours between them, have ten days in which to file an appeal with the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB)."


From:

http://www.examiner.com/x-18134-San-Diego-Airport-Examiner~y2009m10d28-FAA-revokes-licenses-of-wayward-Northwest-flight-188-pilots-who-overshot-Minneapolis

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joeyb747
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« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2009, 08:18:05 PM »

Bleeding hearts or not, let's not forget that using a laptop in flight is against NWA/DAL policy. They should have thought about that before turning on the computers. I hate to sound cold hearted, but I agree with the revocations. POLICY IS POLICY. And they are put in place for a reason...keeping passengers and crew safe as well as the airplane in one piece.

"The stunning admissions disclosed that both pilots were immersed in using their personal laptop computers during the flight, strictly prohibited by Northwest Airline's policy."

From:

http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-18134-San-Diego-Airport-Examiner~y2009m10d26-Jaw-dropping-news-shows-distracted-NWA-flight-188-pilots-were-immersed-in-their-laptops

"According to the Associated Press, FAA regional counsel Eddie Thomas said in a letter to Cheney, "You engaged in conduct that put your passengers and your crew in serious jeopardy. Northwest Flight 188 was not in communications with controllers or the airline dispatchers while you were on a frolic of your own. Not only did you not comply with ... [air traffic controller] instructions, you did not even monitor the aircraft's air-ground radios. You were disengaged and impervious to the serious threat to your own safety, as well as the safety of people for whom you are responsible. This is a total dereliction and disregard for your duties." A similar letter was sent to Cole."

From:

http://www.examiner.com/x-18134-San-Diego-Airport-Examiner~y2009m10d28-FAA-revokes-licenses-of-wayward-Northwest-flight-188-pilots-who-overshot-Minneapolis
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 08:31:45 PM by joeyb747 » Logged

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otto_pilot
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« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2009, 10:00:48 PM »

I'm not saying i don't agree because I do. I'm saying someone who can minimize a window mid flight should not be drawing conclusions about real flying and relating it to flight Sim. This is why; we have all at one point or another played a flight Sim, logged time in an FAA approved Sim, or something like that...... its not the same. You know in real flying you cant pause to check your freaking email or restart because you messed an IAP up.  When you fly in IMC for an hour in a real plane you climb out mentally and physically drained; if you do that in any Sim even a full motion Sim you don't. It's not the same!!! so someone with no logbook should keep in mind if they crash people don't die ever. This was a big mess up and the pilots know that but lets have some gosh darn common courtesy and let them be. Think if you got fired for gross negligence....... how would you feel? CRAPPY. rant off please excuse the spelling as i was in a hurry.
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tower: right delta ground point niner
pilot: Uh tower did you mean to say ground point 8 or do you want us to try them on point 9.
tower: Oh yea point 8 would work better, wouldnt it
zacek
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« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2009, 10:37:44 PM »

Anthony,

I think a couple of points are in order here.  First, the "SIM Pilot" you attack so harshly is actually making a valid argument.  When a primary task (flying or driving) involves safety, it is reckless and stupid to get so deeply involved in a secondary task (using a laptop/texting) that one is no longer attentive to the primary task.

Second, I think there are two fallacies in your reasoning in condemning him for articulating his opinion.  First, as an 18 year-old C172 pilot, your frame of reference is probably more like his than the 10,000 hour ATP, yet you imply your opinion is "more" valid.  Also, can you apply your "you can't judge unless you are one" theory universally to your life?  No opinion on your medical care because you aren't a doctor?  No opinion on the Police because you aren't a sworn officer?  What about politics?  Can political opinions only be held by politicians?

These forums (like any hangar discussion) are a place to discuss things, including reckless mistakes, in order that we all may make better decisions in the future.  If someone has an opinion that is based on incorrect data, we can certainly point out the flaw in the data, but that's not the case here, is it?

So whether it's a computer, a Cessna, or a real aircraft, let's assume we can all have (and share) an opinion on whether or not it's appropriate for a pilot to forget to fly an airplane for 78 minutes.

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otto_pilot
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« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2009, 12:09:46 AM »

I was a bit mean and for that i do say sorry.

Out of respect to you sir i will not post the long post I had written up. I will say a few small things and let it be. 1st I'm working on my commercial and multi engine. Just started the 2nd stage of that training. I am young and low time, but at our college we go to school to learn about aviation as a whole. My frame of reference is not in the same area code as his.

Second who would you trust more with your medical care? 1. Someone who watches the TV show Er or a med student?.
Next I never said his conclusion was based off incorrect data I said it was morally wrong as a person to second guess someone who just lost everything; especially when it is common knowledge they messed up. Hindsight is 20/20.

Also I do believe a Cessna, piper, or a diamond all are considered "real airplanes" by the FAA. I could be wrong there I don't follow the the FAA to close so I could have missed when the said those were not "real airplanes". They may not be fast or carry a lot of people but I don't ever see a computer fly. OK then so where is my logic messed up by fallacies there?
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tower: right delta ground point niner
pilot: Uh tower did you mean to say ground point 8 or do you want us to try them on point 9.
tower: Oh yea point 8 would work better, wouldnt it
kea001
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« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2009, 11:23:11 AM »

Maybe they were immersed in their laptops playing FSX and got frozen in SLEW mode.

That's such a _____.

I could see how that would freak out even the most experienced of pilots.

wink

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joeyb747
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« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2009, 08:57:53 PM »

Maybe they were immersed in their laptops playing FSX and got frozen in SLEW mode.

That's such a _____.

I could see how that would freak out even the most experienced of pilots.

wink



 cheesy  grin No joke!  grin  cheesy
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swillis34
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« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2009, 02:01:57 AM »

Hey backseat flight sim pilot lets not monday morning quarterback them. For flip sake they lost there entire life career ect. They as well as just about everyone else know the freaked up. Let them alone

I read your "apology" post and I appreciate and acknowledge it.

I'm also not saying I know more or a lot about flying than 90% of the folks on this forum, and especially not the two pilots in question.

I also appreciate zacek coming to my defense a little there. I was only stating my opinion, and what seems like common sense. I'm not saying that the pilots weren't fatigued, that they don't know what they were doing, or that I know more about flying than anyone else.

With that said, my argument remains the same... wouldn't anyone check their stuff regularly to ensure everything's still in order? We're not talking 10 minutes, we're talking 78 minutes, and if they are using their laptops (which they know is against policy) wouldn't that make them think about "what I'm doing is against the rules, so I'm just going to glance over the panel here and make sure we're still good" or say "you know, we haven't heard from ATC in a while... we should listen carefully."

It's the same principle for doing anything "against the rules" really. If I'm not supposed to be playing games at work (for funny's sake, Flight Simulator), do I play them all day without thinking "you know, if the boss walked by right now........" or "jeez, I should probably do a BIT of work today so I don't look like a fool if the boss walks by"

That is all I was saying... you don't need to know jack about flying an airplane to understand that.
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