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Author Topic: Northwest flight overshoots KMSP any audio?  (Read 13287 times)
swillis34
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« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2009, 01:38:04 PM »

Okay, so I'm NOT a pilot........ but I do fly a lot on Flight Simulator. Even on a game, if I minimize the window mid-flight, I constantly check back and forth to make sure I'm okay in terms of frequencies, distance, speed, etc.....

These guys are flying a real aircraft with the information surrounding them. You'd think that they would check the instruments, GPS, etc. every once in a while. Especially after going without communication for almost an hour.

I don't recommend doing this, but if you drive your car, and are reading a map or--god forbid--texting while you're driving, don't you glance up regularly? Transfer the same principle to flying... don't you glance up regularly to check your stuff?
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otto_pilot
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« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2009, 03:41:18 PM »

Hey backseat flight sim pilot lets not monday morning quarterback them. For flip sake they lost there entire life career ect. They as well as just about everyone else know the freaked up. Let them alone
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tower: right delta ground point niner
pilot: Uh tower did you mean to say ground point 8 or do you want us to try them on point 9.
tower: Oh yea point 8 would work better, wouldnt it
joeyb747
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Nothing Like A 747!


« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2009, 08:10:09 PM »

So what happens now? can they appeal to get their licences back? Its a real shame to lose your career because of their first career mistake even tho it was big..... cant they just suspend them for 3 months or put them around a desk. WOW im sad that they lost everything they worked so hard for!!

"According to Laura Brown, FAA spokesperson, "The emergency revocations cite violations of a number of Federal Aviation Regulations. Those include failing to comply with air traffic control instructions and clearances and operating carelessly and recklessly."

The revocations take effect immediately. The two veteran pilots, who have logged over 31,000 flight hours between them, have ten days in which to file an appeal with the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB)."


From:

http://www.examiner.com/x-18134-San-Diego-Airport-Examiner~y2009m10d28-FAA-revokes-licenses-of-wayward-Northwest-flight-188-pilots-who-overshot-Minneapolis

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joeyb747
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Nothing Like A 747!


« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2009, 08:18:05 PM »

Bleeding hearts or not, let's not forget that using a laptop in flight is against NWA/DAL policy. They should have thought about that before turning on the computers. I hate to sound cold hearted, but I agree with the revocations. POLICY IS POLICY. And they are put in place for a reason...keeping passengers and crew safe as well as the airplane in one piece.

"The stunning admissions disclosed that both pilots were immersed in using their personal laptop computers during the flight, strictly prohibited by Northwest Airline's policy."

From:

http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-18134-San-Diego-Airport-Examiner~y2009m10d26-Jaw-dropping-news-shows-distracted-NWA-flight-188-pilots-were-immersed-in-their-laptops

"According to the Associated Press, FAA regional counsel Eddie Thomas said in a letter to Cheney, "You engaged in conduct that put your passengers and your crew in serious jeopardy. Northwest Flight 188 was not in communications with controllers or the airline dispatchers while you were on a frolic of your own. Not only did you not comply with ... [air traffic controller] instructions, you did not even monitor the aircraft's air-ground radios. You were disengaged and impervious to the serious threat to your own safety, as well as the safety of people for whom you are responsible. This is a total dereliction and disregard for your duties." A similar letter was sent to Cole."

From:

http://www.examiner.com/x-18134-San-Diego-Airport-Examiner~y2009m10d28-FAA-revokes-licenses-of-wayward-Northwest-flight-188-pilots-who-overshot-Minneapolis
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 08:31:45 PM by joeyb747 » Logged

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otto_pilot
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« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2009, 10:00:48 PM »

I'm not saying i don't agree because I do. I'm saying someone who can minimize a window mid flight should not be drawing conclusions about real flying and relating it to flight Sim. This is why; we have all at one point or another played a flight Sim, logged time in an FAA approved Sim, or something like that...... its not the same. You know in real flying you cant pause to check your freaking email or restart because you messed an IAP up.  When you fly in IMC for an hour in a real plane you climb out mentally and physically drained; if you do that in any Sim even a full motion Sim you don't. It's not the same!!! so someone with no logbook should keep in mind if they crash people don't die ever. This was a big mess up and the pilots know that but lets have some gosh darn common courtesy and let them be. Think if you got fired for gross negligence....... how would you feel? CRAPPY. rant off please excuse the spelling as i was in a hurry.
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tower: right delta ground point niner
pilot: Uh tower did you mean to say ground point 8 or do you want us to try them on point 9.
tower: Oh yea point 8 would work better, wouldnt it
zacek
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« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2009, 10:37:44 PM »

Anthony,

I think a couple of points are in order here.  First, the "SIM Pilot" you attack so harshly is actually making a valid argument.  When a primary task (flying or driving) involves safety, it is reckless and stupid to get so deeply involved in a secondary task (using a laptop/texting) that one is no longer attentive to the primary task.

Second, I think there are two fallacies in your reasoning in condemning him for articulating his opinion.  First, as an 18 year-old C172 pilot, your frame of reference is probably more like his than the 10,000 hour ATP, yet you imply your opinion is "more" valid.  Also, can you apply your "you can't judge unless you are one" theory universally to your life?  No opinion on your medical care because you aren't a doctor?  No opinion on the Police because you aren't a sworn officer?  What about politics?  Can political opinions only be held by politicians?

These forums (like any hangar discussion) are a place to discuss things, including reckless mistakes, in order that we all may make better decisions in the future.  If someone has an opinion that is based on incorrect data, we can certainly point out the flaw in the data, but that's not the case here, is it?

So whether it's a computer, a Cessna, or a real aircraft, let's assume we can all have (and share) an opinion on whether or not it's appropriate for a pilot to forget to fly an airplane for 78 minutes.

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otto_pilot
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« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2009, 12:09:46 AM »

I was a bit mean and for that i do say sorry.

Out of respect to you sir i will not post the long post I had written up. I will say a few small things and let it be. 1st I'm working on my commercial and multi engine. Just started the 2nd stage of that training. I am young and low time, but at our college we go to school to learn about aviation as a whole. My frame of reference is not in the same area code as his.

Second who would you trust more with your medical care? 1. Someone who watches the TV show Er or a med student?.
Next I never said his conclusion was based off incorrect data I said it was morally wrong as a person to second guess someone who just lost everything; especially when it is common knowledge they messed up. Hindsight is 20/20.

Also I do believe a Cessna, piper, or a diamond all are considered "real airplanes" by the FAA. I could be wrong there I don't follow the the FAA to close so I could have missed when the said those were not "real airplanes". They may not be fast or carry a lot of people but I don't ever see a computer fly. OK then so where is my logic messed up by fallacies there?
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tower: right delta ground point niner
pilot: Uh tower did you mean to say ground point 8 or do you want us to try them on point 9.
tower: Oh yea point 8 would work better, wouldnt it
kea001
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« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2009, 11:23:11 AM »

Maybe they were immersed in their laptops playing FSX and got frozen in SLEW mode.

That's such a _____.

I could see how that would freak out even the most experienced of pilots.

wink

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joeyb747
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Nothing Like A 747!


« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2009, 08:57:53 PM »

Maybe they were immersed in their laptops playing FSX and got frozen in SLEW mode.

That's such a _____.

I could see how that would freak out even the most experienced of pilots.

wink



 cheesy  grin No joke!  grin  cheesy
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swillis34
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« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2009, 02:01:57 AM »

Hey backseat flight sim pilot lets not monday morning quarterback them. For flip sake they lost there entire life career ect. They as well as just about everyone else know the freaked up. Let them alone

I read your "apology" post and I appreciate and acknowledge it.

I'm also not saying I know more or a lot about flying than 90% of the folks on this forum, and especially not the two pilots in question.

I also appreciate zacek coming to my defense a little there. I was only stating my opinion, and what seems like common sense. I'm not saying that the pilots weren't fatigued, that they don't know what they were doing, or that I know more about flying than anyone else.

With that said, my argument remains the same... wouldn't anyone check their stuff regularly to ensure everything's still in order? We're not talking 10 minutes, we're talking 78 minutes, and if they are using their laptops (which they know is against policy) wouldn't that make them think about "what I'm doing is against the rules, so I'm just going to glance over the panel here and make sure we're still good" or say "you know, we haven't heard from ATC in a while... we should listen carefully."

It's the same principle for doing anything "against the rules" really. If I'm not supposed to be playing games at work (for funny's sake, Flight Simulator), do I play them all day without thinking "you know, if the boss walked by right now........" or "jeez, I should probably do a BIT of work today so I don't look like a fool if the boss walks by"

That is all I was saying... you don't need to know jack about flying an airplane to understand that.
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