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| | |-+  Position And Hold Vs Line Up And Wait
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Author Topic: Position And Hold Vs Line Up And Wait  (Read 24116 times)
tyketto
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« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2010, 03:47:04 AM »

I'm pretty sure that at a big airport like JFK the charts and the ATIS says that you must read back all runway holding instructions back verbatim.  If the controller says hold short of the duck you say duck. AC# hold short of the anatidae.
~D

At every controlled field, you'll need to read back all runway holding instructions, let alone runway assignments. States as such on the airport diagram of the field in question.

BL.
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tucraceman
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« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2010, 08:00:13 PM »

I'm pretty sure that at a big airport like JFK the charts and the ATIS says that you must read back all runway holding instructions back verbatim.  If the controller says hold short of the duck you say duck. AC# hold short of the anatidae.
~D

At every controlled field, you'll need to read back all runway holding instructions, let alone runway assignments. States as such on the airport diagram of the field in question.

BL.


Correct.  But in the past I have accidently gotten away with "roger" as a response to taxi instructions at a Class D...the controllers know me.  But in a class C or B they are quite touchy about read backs.
~D
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ramosphysics
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« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2010, 10:45:35 AM »

I guess "position and hold" can be misunderstood as "position and roll", cause in some languages the "r" sounds like "h". That´s why i am for "line up and wait". wink
« Last Edit: August 06, 2010, 10:47:46 AM by ramosphysics » Logged
tyketto
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« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2010, 11:45:23 AM »

I guess "position and hold" can be misunderstood as "position and roll", cause in some languages the "r" sounds like "h". That´s why i am for "line up and wait". wink

Not really..

The biggest issue with it is that we in the US are sloppy with our English. I mean that, seriously.

We are so quick to get simple words out of our mouths that sometimes you can't hear them altogether. Think about how many times ATC says 'position and hold'. Because of the level of traffic coming in and out, they could rush through it and say 'position-n-hold', or even worse, you barely hear the word 'and' as it falls off the tongue way too easily after pronouncing the 'n' in 'position'.

And since those in other ICAO and especially non-English speaking countries (where English is not the primary language), pilots there listen closely for those words. So a 'position-n-hold' sounds like there is no 'and' there, and all they hear is "position hold". What do they get out of that? "Hold Position." So that is what they read back. They are holding their position.

This is why when the FAA omitted 'taxi into' from the TIPH call, they made things worse than better. "Taxi into position and hold" was a lot easier to understand and provided equivalence to LUAW. In short, by taking out "taxi into", they shot themselves in the foot and added more ambiguity than what they were trying to get rid of. By going ICAO on us, they eliminate that altogether.

BL.
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NEILCM80
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« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2010, 08:26:40 AM »

I dont think the French are really in a position to say how how things should be said on a radio, dont they speak French whenever they get a chance at French airports?? there not the only countries.

Barge
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tyketto
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« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2010, 02:48:35 PM »

I dont think the French are really in a position to say how how things should be said on a radio, dont they speak French whenever they get a chance at French airports?? there not the only countries.

Barge

They shouldn't, but they can.

According to the ICAO, English is the preferred language to use as far as air traffic communications go, with a fallback to the pilot's native language if the call or instruction isn't understandable. So yes, a French pilot can speak French if he/she wants. but as soon as someone who only knows English pops up, the communication between ATC and that English-speaking pilot should (must) be in English.

BL.
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captray
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« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2010, 04:24:21 PM »

Enough already, when I fly in an ICAO country it's line up and wait. When I fly in the US it's Position and hold. Not a big deal.

Juist wait until the US goes to slots like eurocontrol for every thing, That's when I retire!
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tyketto
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« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2010, 04:02:15 AM »

Enough already, when I fly in an ICAO country it's line up and wait. When I fly in the US it's Position and hold. Not a big deal.

Juist wait until the US goes to slots like eurocontrol for every thing, That's when I retire!

After 9/30/10, P&H is gone. just FYI.

BL.
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svoynick
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« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2010, 03:07:00 AM »


After 9/30/10, P&H is gone. just FYI.

Will there be a special liveatc.net award for the first posting of a US Tower controller issuing a "line up and wait" clearance?
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alltheway
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« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2010, 04:32:04 AM »

I allready have a suggestion for the future call of this, when they want to change it again!

Get in sequence and STOP
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MCM
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« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2010, 08:49:34 AM »

Its about time this change was made.

The world aviation authority has a preferred way of doing it, and unless there are safety implications for not doing so, all countries should follow it.

There is no reason to NOT use "Line up" or "Line up and wait", and given it is the accepted international standard it is about time it was used in the USA.

Its time this "different for difference sake" mentality is removed.

Next we just have to get rid of a descent clearance without an actual clearance (ie Cross xxx at implying a clearance, rather than "Descend to xxx, cross xxx at....".
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sykocus
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« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2010, 12:42:07 PM »

Next we just have to get rid of a descent clearance without an actual clearance (ie Cross xxx at implying a clearance, rather than "Descend to xxx, cross xxx at....".

It's doing more then just implying a clearance.  It *is* a clearance. Just like "cross runway 24R",

E.g. "Cross JUNIE at FL350" meaning when you cross JUNIE you need to be at 350. It is however a pilot's discretion clearance. The pilot can climb/descent right now, at the last minute or gradually from now until JUNIE.
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svoynick
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« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2010, 02:37:50 PM »

I have a terminology question about "line up and wait."  Is it exactly and precisely replacing "(taxi into) position and hold", always implying that you are to take position on the runway and wait for a takeoff clearance?  If that's the case, and it's stated clearly in the rules & regs, etc., then I don't have any problem with it.  It's a clear term used for a clear unambiguous reason, and if they want to change it then I can adapt.

However, the use of the term "line up" sounds like it could also be used to direct an aircraft into a sequence (a "line") of planes waiting to take the active runway - maybe that's what has stirred people up.  For exampe, alltheway's suggestion (which I know was a joke...) that it eventually be replaced with "Get in sequence..."  That's not the same thing. 

It may be a quirk of American English that we commonly use the same word for the noun "line" as well as for the verb both to "line up" (in a sequence) as well as to "line up" with a reference, like runway heading.   In England, they more commonly use "queue" for the noun form, don't they?  Maybe that makes it seem less ambiguous to them.

So my question is, is it true that "line up" will always and only mean "get lined up on the runway", and never "take a position in a line of aircraft"?
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Casper87
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« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2010, 04:01:40 PM »

Hey S,

To answer your question; yes. 'Line up and wait' means exactly the same as your 'position and hold.'

I.e Line up [on the runway] and wait [on the runway]

As for any "language" differences, well, thats a matter of individual interpretation but its unlikely to be a problem as long as flight deck crew keep themselves up-to-date. Unfortunately its part and parcel of avaition phraseology. Different people MAY interpret something in a different way to someone else, but as long as the phrase is correctly defined by the authority (CAA, ICAO, FAA etc..) then there shoudn't be any confusion.

What date is the changeover? (from PAH to Line up)

Cheers,

Casper

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MCM
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« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2010, 09:01:01 PM »

Sykocus,

In the USA, it is a clearance. In the rest of the world, it is most definately not.

Everywhere else, you must hear the specific words "CLIMB" or "DESCEND" to consider it a clearance.

That is the way we keep from having informal comments or future instructions becoming interpreted as clearances.
For example, ATC can impose a height restriction without permitting descent at that stage. In cruise, I might be told that I have to cross a waypoint at 6000ft - that doesn't mean I can now descend do it, just a restriction I need to meet when I am cleared. Allows me to have it in the FMC prior to descent.

I just don't see why it would be so hard for the magic words "climb" and "descend" to be put into the clearance to have world standardisation and keep the concept of a specific clearance protected.

svoynick,

The words "line up" are very specifically restricted to use for entering the runway (and not taking off). Just like the words "take off" should not be used for any purpose other than a specifc takeoff clearance.

.
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