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Author Topic: Qantas 747 engine explodes (or some other small problem)  (Read 32439 times)
Eric M
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« on: August 31, 2010, 11:13:58 AM »

KIRO-TV in Seattle is just reporting this news out of SFO, a Qantas 747 had an exploded engine and returned. No other details; here are images of the plane:

http://www.kirotv.com/slideshow/news/24824100/detail.html

Here's the audio, starting with Tower before takeoff, and going all the way through to Ground after landing. 17 minutes. Very interesting.

* Qantas 747 SFO3.mp3 (4141.69 KB - downloaded 7046 times.)
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 04:16:51 PM by Eric M » Logged
Eric M
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« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2010, 11:16:47 AM »

Here's more of the story, and another good picture.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/08/31/BA021F67JO.DTL
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iskyfly
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« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2010, 11:45:51 AM »

Not an explosion.
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DingerX
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« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2010, 12:30:55 PM »

http://de.flightaware.com/live/flight/QFA74/history/20100831/0610Z/KSFO/KSFO/tracklog

audio's on ZOA
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/ksfo/ZOA-SFO-Aug-31-2010-0630Z.mp3
ZOA Cntr checkin (TO clearance is on KSFO twr at the hour, Norcal departure at 1.20): +3.44
+18:20 Engine FAIL
21:30 Require RV

and you can pick it up from there.
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Eric M
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« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2010, 01:35:55 PM »

I'm working on editing the audio now.
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alltheway
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« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2010, 01:42:07 PM »

OMG just in front of the company logo!


just kidding, but doesn't seem too much damage (thankfully)
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DingerX
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« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2010, 02:57:12 PM »

Eric M: Awesome! Sorry for being lazy on this one.

By the way, on SFO tower at least, rescue services come one at 742Z (so before the handover), if not before.


hey, if there's a partial containment failure, I'm cool with calling it an explosion. If even one bit o' titanium flies out at an unanticipated angle, that counts.
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iskyfly
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« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2010, 03:01:29 PM »



hey, if there's a partial containment failure, I'm cool with calling it an explosion. If even one bit o' titanium flies out at an unanticipated angle, that counts.
Would you call the Challenger accident an explosion?
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 03:08:53 PM by iskyfly » Logged
DingerX
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« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2010, 03:46:21 PM »

Indeed I would! After all, one of the SRBs suffered a partial containment failure. The SRB was mostly intact when it was recovered, but you'd be justfied to say that it exploded.


(Oh yeah, so did that big-ass Liquid Fuel Tank, and the orbiter, but that was later).
Yeah, explosion is when parts blow outwards. For rockets and jet turbines, it's a problem. When bits of titanium that are spinning at 20k RPM bust out of their containing nacelle, bad things can happen. Look at the hole: it's pointing away, but when it went, there was a 1 in 4 chance that it would be going somewhere sporting.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 04:04:19 PM by DingerX » Logged
Eric M
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« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2010, 03:56:22 PM »

After spending all morning with the associated feed archives, I've pieced together an entire audio transcript - but it's 17 minutes and 8 MB in size, and I can't get it to upload for the life of me. Will keep trying........

Edited to add: All done. The audio is in the first post. After the four hours I spent on this, I hope at least one of you will listen.  cheesy
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 04:03:36 PM by Eric M » Logged
DingerX
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« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2010, 04:06:22 PM »

Rock on Eric, (re-)listening, on the principle of the thing.
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Eric M
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« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2010, 04:18:35 PM »

Thanks! I spent a good 40 minutes alone just figuring out that the sample rate was different in the audio between the various feeds. If you hear anything that sounds like Alvin & The Chipmunks, let me know. I think everything is good now.

Also, in light of the controversy over what constitutes an explosion, I have renamed the thread appropriately.

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flyflyfly
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« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2010, 05:07:33 PM »

Thanks for the audio work!
Quite remarkable recording, almost 18 minutes of related audio...

Luckily the blade (or whatever else broke) exited at the engine's side facing away from the plane. Any other direction could have caused more trouble - damaged the wing or #3 engine to the left. "Just" loosing one engine didn't really thrill the Aussie pilot too much. No worries!  grin
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joeyb747
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Nothing Like A 747!


« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2010, 06:03:27 PM »

Not an explosion.

Agreed. This is what we call an "Uncontained Failure". My guess would be in the turbine section, judging how far aft on the cowling the breach is.

There was no fire. The "fire" seen by passengers is caused by engine surge.

Qantas B747-400s are powered by Rolls-Royce RB211 high-bypass turbofan engines. See the pic below. The turbine section is directly behind the burner section, about the area of the breach. Again...just a GUESS!  wink

By the way...GREAT CATCH ERIC M!!


* R-R-RB211%26DETAILS.jpg (106.7 KB, 850x554 - viewed 150 times.)

* R-R RB211-535.jpg (164.75 KB, 992x642 - viewed 131 times.)
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 05:16:51 PM by joeyb747 » Logged

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alltheway
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« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2010, 06:20:40 PM »

Not an explosion.

Agreed. This is what we call an "Uncontained Failure". My guess would be in the turbine section

Not to be rude, but a minor correction here  evil I think this area is called compressor area, the entire engine is a turbine and sections of it are compressor stages  huh
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joeyb747
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Nothing Like A 747!


« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2010, 06:23:33 PM »

hey, if there's a partial containment failure, I'm cool with calling it an explosion. If even one bit o' titanium flies out at an unanticipated angle, that counts.

Please don't take this the wrong way...but...

Partial containment...not possible...it's contained...or it's uncontained! Kind of like a light switch...it's on or it's off...

If ANY part punctures the cowling, it is then an uncontained failure.

Contained:



Uncontained (about 4:30 in...)



United 232 is probably the best known example of an uncontained engine failure.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 05:17:53 PM by joeyb747 » Logged

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joeyb747
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Nothing Like A 747!


« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2010, 06:37:39 PM »

Not an explosion.

Agreed. This is what we call an "Uncontained Failure". My guess would be in the turbine section

Not to be rude, but a minor correction here  evil I think this area is called compressor area, the entire engine is a turbine and sections of it are compressor stages  huh

Not to be rude back...but a minor correction for you... evil

Turbine engines run on the suck-squeeze-burn-blow idea...

A turbine engine is divided up into sections. Intake, Compressor, Combustion, Turbine, and Exhaust. The turbine section has blades that rotate. See the pic below...if you compare the diagram to the photos of the damaged engine, it appears to be in the Turbine section...in fact, one pic shows what appear to be the turbine blades pretty clearly...see the second pic here:

http://www.kirotv.com/slideshow/news/24824100/detail.html

And the compressor section you pointed out is further forward. The compressor section is directly behind the main fan disc.


* components-turbine-engine.gif (37.39 KB, 725x305 - viewed 84 times.)
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 07:35:16 PM by joeyb747 » Logged

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Eric M
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« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2010, 06:44:29 PM »

By the way...GREAT CATCH ERIC M!!

Thanks, but it was nothing - KIRO-TV (Seattle) reported it on Twitter this morning, which is where I saw it. I just went and dug through the archives after that, and cobbled together the recording.
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joeyb747
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Nothing Like A 747!


« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2010, 06:51:31 PM »

By the way...GREAT CATCH ERIC M!!

Thanks, but it was nothing - KIRO-TV (Seattle) reported it on Twitter this morning, which is where I saw it. I just went and dug through the archives after that, and cobbled together the recording.

Well very nice job! Thanks for taking the time to put it all together!
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« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2010, 08:38:48 PM »

Eric - Great job on the extended clip! I know from experience that it takes time to compile and edit all this material down.  smiley

Attached is a clip of Qantas 74 checking in with NORCAL on 135.1 from a different receiver location.

Again great job!

Ken


* KOAK-Dep-Aug-31-2010-0730Z_QFA74_Engineout.mp3 (813.41 KB - downloaded 2905 times.)
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Feeder:
KHWD Ground/Tower
KOAK Del/Gnd/Twr
KSFO NORCAL App Rwy 28L/R
KSFO Tower/Ground
NORCAL Approach (KOAK)
NORCAL Departure (KSFO/KOAK)
KSJC NORCAL Approach #2
ZOA Oakland Center (35/40/41)


RJTT App/Dep
RJTT Tokyo Control
RJTT Twr/TCA
iskyfly
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« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2010, 08:46:26 PM »

Indeed I would!
It didn't.

There was no shock wave, no detonation. It broke apart due to aerodynamic forces well beyond what it was designed to handle.
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joeyb747
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Nothing Like A 747!


« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2010, 08:54:30 PM »

Indeed I would!
It didn't.

There was no shock wave, no detonation. It broke apart due to aerodynamic forces well beyond what it was designed to handle.


In fact, the cause of death listed on some of the autopsy reports was drowning...witch means they were "alive" when they hit the water...also, some of the emergency oxygen packs had been activated!
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iskyfly
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« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2010, 09:00:06 PM »


In fact, the cause of death listed on some of the autopsy reports was drowning...witch means they were "alive" when they hit the water...also, some of the emergency oxygen packs had been activated!
Correct. The crew cabin impacted the water mostly intact.
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joeyb747
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Nothing Like A 747!


« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2010, 09:03:29 AM »

"Qantas 747 makes emergency landing after 'uncontained engine failure'"

"engine failure in midair punched a hole in the external casing, an incident that one expert called 'extremely rare.' "

Such an incident is referred to as an "uncontained engine failure." "


From:

http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/post/2010/08/qantas-emergency-landing/110744/1

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2010/08/31/BA021F67JO.DTL&o=2

Below is a couple pics of the bird involved, Boeing 747-438 VH-OJP (cn 25545/916).


* 1675703.jpg (292.57 KB, 1200x812 - viewed 70 times.)

* 0623374.jpg (250.03 KB, 1200x812 - viewed 73 times.)
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 09:21:47 AM by joeyb747 » Logged

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joeyb747
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Nothing Like A 747!


« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2010, 09:58:42 AM »

Just a little technical info here:

The power plants on Qantas Boeing 747-438 aircraft VH-OJA thru VH-OJU (21 aircraft) are the Rolls-Royce RB211-524G/T, rated at 58,000 lbf thrust each.
These engines feature FADEC, or Full Authority Digital Engine Control.

Other key features of the RB211-254 series include:

-Triple-spool high-bypass-ratio 4.3 - 4.1
-Single-stage wide-chord fan
-Seven-stage IP compressor
-Six-stage HP compressor
-Single annular combustor with 18 fuel burners (24 on the G/H-T)
-Single-stage HP turbine
-Single-stage IP turbine
-Three-stage LP turbine

http://www.rolls-royce.com/civil/products/largeaircraft/rb211_524/

Below are a couple pics of these powerhouse engines on Qantas B747-438 aircraft.


* 1428323.jpg (244.4 KB, 1024x695 - viewed 72 times.)

* 0905189.jpg (163.78 KB, 683x1036 - viewed 72 times.)
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 10:31:59 AM by joeyb747 » Logged

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