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Author Topic: Really scary carelessness on ATC part  (Read 17080 times)
Saabeba
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« on: May 04, 2008, 10:29:42 PM »

If this has posted here before, sorry newbie here.

Providence near accident in thick fog -- I don't see how the ATC clear's a plane for take-off without having clear confirmation of where all planes are.


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lololepro
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« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2008, 01:25:05 AM »

Very scary clip!!! The controller sounds like she has no idea what she is doing... Notice at the end she clears 2998 for takeoff on the wrong runway (23L) before correcting it to 5R
Does anyone know if there was an investigation and what the outcome was? It seems obvious that 1448 made a big mistake but admitted it as soon as they realized something was wrong... But the controller sounded like she didn't care, she just ignored the comments about the "active runway"...
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ect76
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EGPH


« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2008, 01:28:28 AM »

Agreed- And the fact she totally lost her cool and started shouting at everyone and anyone who'd listen over the radio didn't help. The scariest thing, I thought, was that she was still attempting to clear aircraft for takeoff when there was a plane out there with no idea where they were! Could've easily been disastrous!!

Edit - Sorry, just noticed Saabeba made more or less exactly the point I made about clearing for t/o...Makes my post seem kinda pointless now!!
« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 01:30:33 AM by ect76 » Logged
Heading090
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« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2008, 05:00:11 AM »

FAA did not find any errors in controller's actions:

"Peters, the FAA spokesman, declined to identify the pilots or the controller last week. The controller's name, he said, "is not releasable" under federal law because the FAA did not find any errors in her instructions to the pilots.

Nonetheless, immediately after the incident, "The controller was decertified, meaning you can't handle live traffic, underwent retraining for a period of time, was recertified and returned to duty."

[Source: http://www.projo.com/news/nearmiss/]
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aevins
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« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2008, 10:06:33 AM »

FAA didn't but the NTSB did. She was de/recertified.
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Heading090
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« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2008, 10:17:11 AM »

Could you point me to the source of this information?
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aevins
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« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2008, 03:56:57 PM »

NTSB report on the incident, section on human factors
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cessna157
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« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2008, 04:13:27 PM »

This incident is used inmany training cases, as it involves exactly what to do in certain situations (stop the aircraft and sort out where you are in you're lost & if there's something odd going on, feel free to decline any clearance until it gets sorted out) and what not to do (obvious).

Interestingly enough, as we pointed out in a recent CRM class I had to take, there is a contradiction in the FAA's actions/findings.  They point out that the controller did nothing wrong operationally, but the controller was decertified, which happens when you have an operational error...... huh
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CRJ7/CRJ9 F/O, Travel Agent
Heading090
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« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2008, 04:19:16 PM »

@aevins  I would like to look through this NTSB report - sounds like interesting reading.
Do you have a link or report number?
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Saabeba
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« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2008, 05:10:54 PM »

I don't see why, if you do not have visual sighting due to Fog and you do not have ground radar, why it is not a requirement in an airport that a plane holds before crossing any run/taxi way, confirms location with Tower, and then proceeds.  The same procedure when the plane is about to turn or pass a turn, hold first before and confirm.

Otherwise you are depending on Pilots navigating around an airport blind with just the map on their lap and their recollection of your instruction. huh

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aevins
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« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2008, 05:35:34 PM »

expert66 I'll look and see what I can find, but I learned of this incident in the way cessna157 mentioned, and awhile ago.

As for runway crossings, pilots must have a clearance from the controller to cross an active runway. Why aren't progressive taxi instructions used in very low visibility situations? Well, if the airport is fairly busy and there is only once controller working both the LC and GC positions, then that controller just does not have the time to issue progressive instructions to every aircraft. Since 1999, ASDE ("ground radar") has been installed at PVD, and I believe at most all higher level towers today possess some form of ground radar. AMASS prevents situations like this from happening.

Check out these links:

http://www.ntsb.gov/recs/letters/2000/A00_66_71.pdf

http://www.ntsb.gov/Events/2000/incursion/incur_video.htm
« Last Edit: May 05, 2008, 08:25:32 PM by aevins » Logged
Saabeba
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« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2008, 07:36:26 PM »

That is chilling.

I am in finance and IT, and you would not put a program or control place that you reasonably expect to fail.

In both of these examples, the onus is on the Pilot to execute instructions.

The ground radar seems like a resonable solution, but I now will think twice about flying out of or into smaller airports unless I know that it is in place.

I recall that a regional jet not long ago took off of the wrong runway, in Florida I believe.

For an industry involved in moving passengers at mortal speeds, I am surprised at risk allowed.  Are airports in other countries under tighter control (ground radar or progressive taxing)?
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aevins
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« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2008, 08:09:14 PM »

Welcome to the industry. Those recordings are all pre 2001. A lot had changed in the last 7-8 years. If you would like to learn about more current problems take a look at NextGen and the staffing crisis. Don Brown writes a great blog called "Get the Flick", gettheflick.blogspot.com, check it out.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2008, 11:22:37 PM »

I recall that a regional jet not long ago took off of the wrong runway, in Florida I believe.

Lexington, Kentucky.  Accident report is here:  http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2007/AAR0705.htm
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
Saabeba
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« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2008, 10:59:17 AM »

Really, great advert to avoid regional airports.
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