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Author Topic: Runway Incursion at KPHL  (Read 22299 times)
KMSY
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« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2007, 03:14:49 AM »

Wow. This site, and our posts can really get the media's attention. I hope they went through the right steps to acquire this audio though.

This very forum is probably most media outlets first stop in investigating reports similar to this. That makes taking the time to compile a clip that much more rewarding.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2007, 11:49:18 PM »

It took long enough for the media to break it. You can see the at the top of the video Courtesy: Liveatc.net  grin

http://www.nbc10.com/travelgetaways/13800433/detail.html?dl=mainclick

LOL... Did you see the size of that USAirways jet in the news animation??  They made it so big that the left wingtip was hanging over the active runway while it was taxiing parallel to the runway.  Looks like the incursion started well before the pilot crossed, if that animation were to be believed.  grin  grin
« Last Edit: August 02, 2007, 11:50:59 PM by KSYR-pjr » Logged

Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
flygirl
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« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2007, 11:59:10 PM »

"It took long enough for the media to break it. You can see the at the top of the video Courtesy: Liveatc.net  grin"
I'm so glad you're happy PHL Approach.  Lord knows you've been pontificating about PHL long enough to desperately want to convince everyone that you actually know everything there is to know about PHL.  But the truth is that if you were actually a controller at PHL, you'd shut your mouth.  It was obvious to me when you previously posted two controller's names that you weren't a controller.  Only a wannabee.  Real controllers don't want their names posted like Lindsay Lohan's.  Publicizing our names is not a positive thing. 

As another poster said, "But Wow. This site, and our posts can really get the media's attention."  Exactly.  Controllers are doing their job, not striving for media attention.  Unfortunately the media is striving for sensationalism.  Leave us out of this.   angry
« Last Edit: August 03, 2007, 12:00:58 AM by flygirl » Logged
Michael_Espinal
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« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2007, 05:52:11 AM »

Gesh way to crash and kill a Topic Huh flygirl? undecided
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MathFox
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« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2007, 07:46:56 AM »

Without mentioning names in particular, I'ld like to point some of the participants in this discussion to Dave's request for civility.
http://www.liveatc.net/forums/index.php/topic,2966.0.html
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ogogog
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« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2007, 12:12:58 PM »

"It took long enough for the media to break it. You can see the at the top of the video Courtesy: Liveatc.net  grin"
I'm so glad you're happy PHL Approach.  Lord knows you've been pontificating about PHL long enough to desperately want to convince everyone that you actually know everything there is to know about PHL.  But the truth is that if you were actually a controller at PHL, you'd shut your mouth.  It was obvious to me when you previously posted two controller's names that you weren't a controller.  Only a wannabee.  Real controllers don't want their names posted like Lindsay Lohan's.  Publicizing our names is not a positive thing. 

As another poster said, "But Wow. This site, and our posts can really get the media's attention."  Exactly.  Controllers are doing their job, not striving for media attention.  Unfortunately the media is striving for sensationalism.  Leave us out of this.   angry

thank you flygirl ,i agree for us real controllers we spend a career trying to keep our names out of the press and out of the lime light.at times folkes on this sight try to make somthing out of what may be normal to us because they dont understand what really goes on.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2007, 12:14:39 PM by ogogog » Logged
dave
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« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2007, 12:34:51 PM »

Just so it's clear...

1) LiveATC does not *pursue* the media when incidents occur.  Some members have apparently done this, however.  I frown upon it and wish people would not do it.

2) We are occasionally contacted *by* the media and asked if we have any insight on a particular incident, or whether we have any sound clips.  In these cases, I make my best effort to give them useful information.  As an experienced pilot and someone who has some knowledge of the ATC system, I know the limits of my knowledge.   I avoid any wild speculation or disclosure of information I deem to be potentially misleading or damaging to any person, whether a pilot or a controller.  It's the NTSB and FAA's job to investigate the kinds of incidents that are regularly referenced here.

3) Talk about things all you want on the Forum - just keep it civil, factual, and avoid using any names.  Name-dropping of controller names isn't cool.  It might make you feel important, or that you're somehow "connected," but nobody is impressed.  Trust me.

-Dave

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athaker
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« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2007, 01:31:57 PM »

Good job, as always, Dave, keeping this place civil.

And back to the topic at hand:

Peter, that ASRS site is definitely cool!  Get good insight into some of the issues on pilots' and controllers' minds day to day, as a lot of the narratives are "semi-formal", and contain opinions.
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PHL Approach
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« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2007, 01:28:24 AM »

Without mentioning names in particular, I'ld like to point some of the participants in this discussion to Dave's request for civility.
http://www.liveatc.net/forums/index.php/topic,2966.0.html

That's the thing, this topic had NOTHING to do with that. So since someone called me out on it, I went through all my post last night just to see if I had let it slip too many times. Went through 50 pages worth of my posts over a 3 year period and I found out something amazing. I had only posted three names... since 05. Once every year I've posted a name and it's never been a person that doesn't know me personally. Whoppdie doo... To the person that called me out on this, so since there have been a few ATCSs on the forum that have posted other controllers names. Do you think they aren't really controllers? If I was a pilot/controller etc I could care less if a friend posted my name. Just two last things, I was not happy that the media got a hold of it to blow it up. I was happy to see that credit was given to the site for the audio. Second, go find a post where I hinted or said I was a PHL controller?
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aevins
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« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2007, 02:22:24 AM »

For the record, when I originally created this post I had no intention of creating media attention. The reason for which I posted this incident was to exemplify the importance of listening to and understanding taxi instructions, and furthermore to show how a simple directional error could potentially result in a catastrophic accident. I also would like to apologize to the US Airways pilot. It was not my intention for you to come home and hear yourself publicly accosted on the news, even if a mistake was made, for I would not want to hear my mistakes broadcast on television. As for the media, they were doing their job.

On this note, during the past few days I have had the opportunity to speak with controllers regarding generally publicity and this website. It was nice to hear the same response from almost everyone I spoke with, that is they support this site and are thankful for the support we inadvertently give them everyday by listening to the excellent job they do "guiding us home".
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PHL Approach
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« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2007, 02:00:41 AM »

I'm gonna throw this out there, even though flygirl will probably come in and chew me out for my opinions being to harsh for me not being an ATP or ATCS. Flygirl, sorry Im a "know it all" for knowing the position names.  rolleyes

Ok, I decided to listen to the audio myself in entirety and I found some more stuff that is pretty crucial. It's still not lookin' good for that Captain.

The new clip first starts off with Local West (Controller running 9R) giving USA1752 his initial taxi instructions off of 9R. Only Uniform to Papa.

At 3:00 into the clip LW tells USA1752 to follow the regional on Sierra, the RJ was the aircraft that caused SWA2570 to Go Around so he was exiting 9R at Sierra 1 and making a right on Sierra just after going around the construction areas that taking place on Sierra between S1 and S2. That's why LW said "I gave you taxi instructions" since he had already told him about the RJ that he wanted 1752 to follow for the sequence over to Echo.

Couple of people on other forums had asked "Why didn't the controller say hold short 9L?" It's because he didn't want him to hold short 9L! He wanted him to go the opposite direction. I'm only thinking that either pilot was confused and transposing Kilo as Sierra, if that was the case why weren't they looking at their airport diagram and you would think most USA guys would never be confused at Philly. Considering both Kilo and Sierra are the heaviest used taxiways at the airport and both parallel a runway. That's probably why he didn't see that RJ to follow, possibly because he was looking north up towards Juliet and Kilo...

The last transmission is where the position relief happened.

First time using this site, hopefully it stays up:

http://www.mediafire.com/?61zs7vdmjyz

BTW, aevins don't worry about it. Even though I'm sure flygirl doesn't want to hear the truth about all the LAX, or BOS incidents that had been leaked or picked up by the media over the years.
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Fred Clausen
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« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2007, 02:04:41 PM »

Excellent job Ed. I appreciate the effort Smiley
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Fred Clausen
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« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2007, 12:25:49 AM »

I hold both the pilot and controller accountable for this runway incursion. The pilot asked a specific question "are we cleared to cross", which tower never answers directly. Yes, tower gave his instructions again, but obveously the first instructions left the pilot confused. If tower only said "no, you are not cleared to cross", this never would have happened. I think if shit did hit the fan, tower would be in the hot seat as well.
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xprtmarksman
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« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2007, 02:07:00 AM »

Ground definitely never told him to cross, but when a pilot asks to cross a runway a ground controller shouldn't respond with "I need you to taxi!", even though instructions were given afterwards that had nothing to do crossing the runway.  I've noticed that phraseology is really relaxed at JFK, and it's things like this that makes that bad, because the controller probably got dinged for this too. 
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No, No, These Fokkers were Messerschmidts!
aevins
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« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2008, 11:26:57 AM »

Found the ASRS report:

Quote
ACN: 750426

Time / Day

Local Time Of Day : 1801 To 2400
Date : 200707

Place

Locale Reference.Airport : PHL.Airport
State Reference : PA
Altitude.AGL.Single Value : 0

Environment

Flight Conditions : IMC
Light : Night

Aircraft : 1

Controlling Facilities.Tower : PHL.Tower
Operator.Common Carrier : Air Carrier
Make Model Name : B757-200
Operating Under FAR Part : Part 121
Flight Phase.Ground : Taxi
Flight Plan : IFR

Aircraft : 2

Controlling Facilities.Tower : PHL.Tower
Operator.Common Carrier : Air Carrier
Make Model Name : Regional Jet 200 ER&LR
Operating Under FAR Part : Part 121
Flight Phase.Ground : Takeoff Roll
Flight Plan : IFR

Person : 1

Affiliation.Government : FAA
Function.Controller : Local
Qualification.Controller : Radar
Experience.Controller.Limited Radar : 10
Experience.Controller.Radar : 2
Experience.Controller.Time Certified In Position1 : 2
Experience.Controller.Time Certified In Position2 : 2
ASRS Report : 750426

Events

Anomaly.Conflict : Ground Critical
Anomaly.Non Adherence : Published Procedure
Anomaly.Incursion : Runway
Independent Detector.Other.ControllerA
Resolutory Action.Controller : Issued New Clearance
Consequence.FAA : Investigated
Miss Distance.Horizontal : 700

Assessments

Problem Areas : Flight Crew Human Performance
Primary Problem : Flight Crew Human Performance
Air Traffic Incident : Pilot Deviation

Narrative

WHILE WORKING LCL E ON A RWY 9 OP, I NOTICED A B757 APCH RWY 9L AT TXWY N. THE LCL W CTLR WAS ISSUING TAXIING INSTRUCTIONS TO THAT ACFT TO TURN AWAY FROM RWY 9L AND GO S, NOT N ON TXWY N. IT APPEARED THAT THE ACFT WAS NOT FOLLOWING INSTRUCTIONS. I HAD ALREADY ISSUED TKOF CLRNC TO A CRJ2 ON RWY 9L. I IMMEDIATELY CANCELED HIS TKOF CLRNC AND ADVISED HIM TO EXIT THE RWY AT TXWY T. A FEW MOMENTS LATER THE B757 ACFT CROSSED THE RWY. THE AMASS ALERTED BECAUSE THE CRJ2 WAS STILL SLOWING DOWN TO EXIT AT TXWY T. AFTER A REVIEW OF THE VOICE RECORDINGS, THE B757 PLT CROSSED THE RWY WITHOUT ATC AUTH.

Synopsis

PHL LCL CTLR DESCRIBED GND CONFLICT WHEN ACR ENTERED RWY WITHOUT CLRNC, REQUIRING TKOF CLRNC CANCELLATION AND INITIATING AMASS ALERT.
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