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Author Topic: Sanford Crash  (Read 38344 times)
Aardvark
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« on: July 10, 2007, 11:10:58 AM »

KSFB picked up the controller getting info from female pilot on crash at 1235z KSFB archive. I'll see about getting deadair out and posting clip later.
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Aardvark
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« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2007, 11:56:19 AM »

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNumSQL.asp?NNumbertxt=501N

Cessna 310 N501N

From listening to the DAB feed all I can tell is that 501n was handed off to Orlando Approach then the rollover on feed hit. He seemed kinda distracted but didn't dec an emergency.

KDAB 1211z first transmissions from him.
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aevins
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« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2007, 12:31:57 PM »

A very sad and unfortunate accident. I wish my best to the families afflicted by this tragedy.
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pilotboi411
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« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2007, 12:54:17 PM »


From listening to the DAB feed all I can tell is that 501n was handed off to Orlando Approach then the rollover on feed hit. He seemed kinda distracted but didn't dec an emergency.

KDAB 1211z first transmissions from him.

The KDAB 1200Z clip is only 17 minutes long...what's up with that?
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Ben F.
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« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2007, 01:16:31 PM »

Very sad incident, used to live just a few blocks from there when I attended Delta Connection Academy. Thoughts and prayers with the families.  embarassed
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chefnoel
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« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2007, 01:52:19 PM »

YAHOO news now reporting 5 fatalities.
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pilotboi411
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« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2007, 02:22:13 PM »

Lifeguard 310ME is being flown to Orl Exec to bring the 10-year-old (that was in the house) to Ohio. He has third degree burns on 80-90% of his body, and aparently one of Ohio's hospital is one of few that can treat him. Tracking it live:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N310ME
« Last Edit: July 10, 2007, 02:26:25 PM by pilotboi411 » Logged
Biff
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« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2007, 05:07:32 PM »

I pulled the archives and didn't hear any calls from the accident aircraft to the tower.  I think he was still with Orlando approach.   There is audio of a the controller vectoring a Connection Academy aircraft over to the scene to get an ID and location.  She (the Connection pilot) did an excellent job.

As of now, 5pm EST, you can still hear a ton of helo traffic working the scene.

A sad, sad day.
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aviator_06
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« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2007, 10:41:13 PM »

Yea he was flown in to Cincinnati's Lunken Airport. I've flown there a few times my self. Has anyone found any recordings of the accident. I went through the archives myself but couldn't find anything. Also does anyone know what time it occured? Also please pray for the boy and the families involved in this tragedy.
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Hollis
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« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2007, 11:17:45 PM »

Go to the archives for KDAB at 1200Z-1230Z. July 10. He contacts Approach at about 1211Zm but at 1215Z reports he 'lost radio for a second'. (First sign of trouble?).
Follow up with KSFB at 1230Z-1300Z. At 1235Z, tower requests 'Connection 604' to divert to location of smoke.
(Ironically, there is another 501N in the traffic pattern, a 'Connection' a/c).
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ejauburn
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« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2007, 12:04:00 AM »

Prayers to all .... Smoke in the cockpit must have not let them see out off the aircraft or been able to see the panel... Sounds like 2 veteran pilots ....
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pilotboi411
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« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2007, 12:34:29 AM »

I pulled the archives and didn't hear any calls from the accident aircraft to the tower.  I think he was still with Orlando approach. 

Has anyone found any recordings of the accident. I went through the archives myself but couldn't find anything. Also does anyone know what time it occured? Also please pray for the boy and the families involved in this tragedy.

To answer these questions, there is no recording of the actual accident itself. At about 1217z on KDAB's feed he is told to switch to Orlando App on 121.1, and this is likely the frequency he went down on. This frequency is not recorded by anyone on LiveATC, so you won't be able to find any last calls anywhere. As noted, multiple attempts to locate the position on smoke start at 1234Z on KSFB.
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pilotboi411
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« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2007, 01:33:59 PM »

Here's all we have related to this accident. I edited two clips, including KDAB 7-10-07 1200Z and KSFB 7-10-07 1230Z. The clip attached has both segments in there. Dead air has been removed.

It begins with KDAB and N501N calling up Daytona Departure. (Note: both the pilot and controller say the 0 in the callsign quickly and it is often heard as 51N) This continues for just under 3 minutes. As Daytona hands them off to Orlando Approach on 121.1, there is some hint of something not right, as the pilot reports brief comm outage, as well as asking to repeat  instructions.

At 2:45, a beep (inserted by me) indicates the switch to the KSFB feed. Note that there is a large gap in time between these two points (about 20 or so minutes).

We pick up with KSFB asking a Connection (Delta Connection Academy) aircraft to look for smoke on the ground. He coordinates with a few other pilots to help indentify the exact location of the smoke/crash. Many thanks to all the aircraft helping out, especially the number of Connection planes that were on their way back from training.

* Sanford Crash 7-10-07.mp3 (4288.65 KB - downloaded 1358 times.)
« Last Edit: July 11, 2007, 01:39:33 PM by pilotboi411 » Logged
aviator_06
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« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2007, 11:45:46 PM »

Nice job editing the clip. Even though it's kind of hard to listen to. I wounder what exactly happned.
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clodhoppers18
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« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2007, 10:39:45 AM »

I volunteer with the Red Cross, and I was asked to assist in transport of one of the relatives to the crash site from Tallahassee, FL.  I saw first hand, closer than the media, what it looks like. The NTSB is out there investigating the crash.  It was very eye opening to see how the NTSB "disects" the crash site.  The plane crashed into the back of one house (looking at the front of the houses, it crashed into the house on the left) and a fireball blew into another house that was right beside it.  The two houses that had the plane, and the fireball, are fully destroyed.  There was some minor damage to another house just to the right of the one with the fireball.  I didnt have much time to take a look around, but what I did see was horrific, and to think that a Cessna, could destroy 2 houses, in the middle of a nice neighborhood.  It truly could happen to anybody, and that reality has since been realised, when I visited the site.  I found it very moving to see the baby blue room of one of the houses, and to know that a 6 month old child died there less than 48 hours earlier. 

On the other hand, it was very interesting to see how the NTSB disects the scene.  They label everything to a T and take anywhere from 10-30 pictures of anything the move/remove.  I have always thought that they had an interesting job, and I am considering studying something that could lead into that general career field.

Just thought I would provide some insight into this situation.

Dustin

(btw first post)
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2007, 02:40:22 PM »

It truly could happen to anybody, and that reality has since been realised, when I visited the site.

In no way do I mean to dishonor your volunteer work or the horror of this crash, but regarding the above comment I would be interested in some clarification. 

Are you implying that airplanes could drop into anyone's home?   
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
clodhoppers18
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« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2007, 02:50:49 PM »

Well I am saying that a mishap such as smoke in cockpit, loss of navigation, wing/engine falling off, and causing a crash, it could happen anywhere, and the plane really doesnt care how much money you make, where you live, or who you are.

I guess I should have replaced the word "anyone" in the phrase "it could happen to anyone"  with the word "anywhere".

Just an FYI the houses in that neighborhood have cadilacs, volvos, BMWs, and mercedes in the driveways, and the houses themselves are probably around $350,000 or more.  They are very nice houses.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2007, 02:53:46 PM by clodhoppers18 » Logged

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aevins
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« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2007, 03:08:49 PM »

I have to agree with Dustin, it can really happen "anywhere" and to "anyone" who happens to be on the ground at that time. I realized this too, I live in the apartment building right next to the where Corey Lidle's Cirrus crashed in October, and watched it unfold out of my window. As a pilot, it was a humbling experience, and I commend you Dustin for helping out.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2007, 06:58:24 PM by aevins » Logged
KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2007, 01:09:34 PM »

I have to agree with Dustin, it can really happen "anywhere" and to "anyone" who happens to be on the ground at that time.

Ok, finally.  After a couple of days of limited research here is my counterpoint with some statistics to back it up.

There is the emotional response and then there is the logical response to this type of accident.   The emotional response, which is understandably experienced by the average person who derives most of their information from the 6 o'clock news, is that airplanes falling out of the sky and killing people on the ground is a very real threat.  This concern is similar, IMO, to the fear of flying in small airplanes.  When one receives their information from the headline news media, one tends to develop a somewhat skewed interpretation of the probabilities.  You know the adage: "Bad news sells." 

This point is also demonstrated in the average citizen's perception of violent crime.  Ask someone on the street if they think that violent crime is on the rise in the US and you will most likely receive a resounding "YES."  However, statistics prove that violent crime has been on the decline in the US for the last several years.  Media sensationalism is to blame for the disparity here.

The logical response, however, is to interpret and understand the statistics of these types of accidents with the goal of putting the probability into perspective.  My interpretation of your and the other poster's reply about "this could happen anywhere" falls into a more emotional than logical response (respectfully speaking).

As an active general aviation pilot I always had a gut feeling that aviation accidents (any aircraft accident, not just GA) that either kill or injure random people on the ground make up a very low percentage of the total type of accidents.  As well, the total number of people killed or injured on the ground by aviation accidents is also very low, year to year.

However, to prove this I had to get a hold of the raw data and do some analysis.  While one could simply go to the NTSB Aviation Accident Database Query page on the web, the ability to query for this specific theory is too limited on that page.  The better option is to download the entire accident database, made freely available by the NTSB, and import it into a PC-based accident database management tool for developing one's own comprehensive SQL queries.

In my case  I downloaded the entire NTSB accident database, found here, and imported it into MySQL, a free and fully robust database server tool.  From there I queried the database to count how many accidents injured or killed ground-based people.

For those interested, here's what I discovered -

Note:  These results are for US-based accidents only and exclude the terrorist attacks of 9/11.  Also, I only went back to 1990, which gives a 17 year picture (I believe a statistician would agree this is a good sample set). 


         |--------- ACCIDENTS-----------||--GROUND--||-----------PROBABILITY-----------|
YearTotal Gnd Inj/Death % of TotalDeathsInjuries       Dying              Injured       
1990 927 60.6% 4 3  1 in  62,197,731  1 in 82,930,308
19911126 50.4% 3 5  1 in  84,008,402  1 in 50,405,041
19922212110.5% 410  1 in  63,825,384  1 in 25,530,153
19932147140.7% 610  1 in  43,103,409  1 in 25,862,045
19942108180.9% 743  1 in  37,426,074  1 in  6,092,617
19952127120.6% 7 9  1 in  37,912,613  1 in 29,487,588
19962013100.5% 610  1 in  44,806,390  1 in 26,883,834
19971949160.8% 615  1 in  45,388,873  1 in 18,155,549
19982009160.8% 714  1 in  39,410,510  1 in 19,705,255
19992000120.6% 448  1 in  69,864,982  1 in  5,822,082
20001950 60.3% 2 7  1 in 141,108,476  1 in 40,316,707
20011830160.9%1228  1 in  23,768,857  1 in 10,186,653
20021814110.6% 511  1 in  57,625,195  1 in 26,193,270
20031869120.6% 620  1 in  48,466,004  1 in 14,539,801
20041720 60.3% 0 9       n/a          1 in 32,626,462
20051781100.6% 520  1 in  59,301,412  1 in 14,825,353
20061593100.6% 511  1 in  59,879,697  1 in 27,218,044

 
As you can see, the probability of being killed on the ground by an airplane is approximately 1 in 55 million each year and being injured is approximately 1 in 25 million each year. 

To compare, the one year probability of dying while riding a motorcycle are 1 in 79,121(*), the odds of falling from stairs or steps are 1 in 183,155(*), and the odds of dying in a car are 1 in 18,412(*)

(*) source:  http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds.htm)

This is a bit much but I wanted to back up my thoughts with the statistics. 

And again, in no way do I mean any disrespect to you in this thread or more importantly to the families of those killed or injured by this accident.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
pilotboi411
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« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2007, 02:21:09 PM »

Very, very, VERY nice research! Have you ever thought about becoming a researcher/statistician? And the odds are very interesting to compare. Thanks for your work.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2007, 05:34:14 PM »

Statistician?  No thanks.  Smiley  I am just trying to buck the trend of spouting out opinions as facts without the proper backup.

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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
digger
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« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2007, 05:48:35 PM »

Quote
To compare, the one year probability of dying while riding a motorcycle are 1 in 79,121(*), the odds of falling from stairs or steps are 1 in 183,155(*), and the odds of dying in a car are 1 in 18,412(*)


Those are all examples of things we have at least some measure of choice in. The "airplane falling on my house" scenario is one that has no rhyme nor reason, and would seem to pick it's victims totally at random. (At least for those houses some distance from an airport.) That total randomness is what makes it an easy topic for the sensationalists to prey on, regardless of what the actual statistical chances are.

Could it happen to you? Sure. Is it worth worrying about? Only if you need something to keep you unhappy.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2007, 09:33:45 PM »

Those are all examples of things we have at least some measure of choice in. The "airplane falling on my house" scenario is one that has no rhyme nor reason, and would seem to pick it's victims totally at random

I was going to use the "meteorite crashing through one's house" example, but those were some crazy odds.  (1 in 182,138,880,000,000)
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
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« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2007, 10:10:15 PM »

It's one of those things that for some inexplicable reason I remember very clearly, but some years ago, here in the Pittsburgh area, a woman was killed while driving her car. There was an explosion in an underground electrical manhole, and the cast iron lid was thrown into the air, and crashed through her windsheild. To me, that was always the epitome of a "freak accident".

In late 2001, I was out one night, and literally, 30 seconds after I passed, a similar explosion occurred in an underground electrical vault. The concrete lid of the vault was thrown onto the sidewalk several feet away.

I don't know what the odds of being killed by the flying cover of an underground electrical vault are, but I'm sure they're pretty slim too. The point is, that when you're aware that such a possibility exists, it certainly catches your attention when you miss becoming part of such an event by mere seconds.

I know it can happen, but I don't keep a constant vigil for flying manhole covers...
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clodhoppers18
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« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2007, 02:20:29 AM »

I did not intend to start a long discussion about the idea of a plane falling on someones house.  Nor did I imply or state that I was concerned that a plane was going to come crashing down into my house.  I simply was putting forth the idea that one second life can be so normal, then the next second everything can be completely chaoitic.  Live life to the fullest, and DONT worry about that plane that COULD come crashing into your house.  Instead live to have fun, and not to worry about something like that. the odds of it happening are slim, and if it just happens that you are that 1 in whatever million that just happen to have a plane come crashing into their living room, then you can go out knowing that you had fun and were not concerned about that.  Its like a friend of mine says, "you cant control anything by worrying about it".  I was simply stating a point that was trying to be made, not trying to say that one should worry about a plane crashing into their house.

Dustin
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