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Author Topic: Short nerves at PHL  (Read 15996 times)
IndyTower
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« on: July 02, 2005, 05:55:50 PM »

All this occured at PHL tower sometime in May or early June 2005 within a half hour...cut this all out of a single 30 minute archive.  Obviously people were getting tense...

The first part is a couple pilots bickering, the second and third part are a female controller dealing with all the stress of the day...mostly ground stops and increased in trail spacing.  The pilots were giving her a hard time...think she handled it well with all that was going on.

Sometimes I think pilots wouldn't say anything if they were the ones in the tower shuffling 30 flight strips trying to organize departures so they matched all the in trail seperations needed.
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PHL Approach
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« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2005, 08:16:09 PM »

I think I remember that night, but didnt hear those specific parts. The women just started at PHL a few weeks ago, she came over from PNE. I know alot people that didn't like dealing with her at PNE, now the big boys have to deal with her  wink
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Jason
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« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2005, 09:05:16 PM »

Quote from: PHL_Approach
I think I remember that night, but didnt hear those specific parts. The women just started at PHL a few weeks ago, she came over from PNE. I know alot people that didn't like dealing with her at PNE, now the big boys have to deal with her  wink


I'm curious to see how her career at PHL will go...some of those tower guys at the smaller airports can loose their touch when they walk into the class B ATCT's...IMO

I remember listening to her once...unfortunately I do sympathize for the pilots and the controllers at the same time.  It's hard to communicate with a controller that does not have a good flow and plan; but if this didn't happen with new controllers, we wouldn't have any.  But the controller is trying her hardest and if she wasn't she would probably be pulled for a break in the shift and talked too.  Who knows  Tongue
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thehotshotpilot
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« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2005, 10:04:54 PM »

I would like to see those pilots in KCLT on a busy day, then I'd come in a shoot some ILS approaches in a BLIMP, then see who is bickering
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thehotshotpilot
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« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2005, 10:05:43 PM »

I would like to see those pilots in KCLT on a busy day, then I'd come in a shoot some ILS approaches in a BLIMP, then see who is bickering
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Candyman
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« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2005, 10:37:41 AM »

I hate Philly with a passion. Its a crap hole.
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Jason
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« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2005, 10:40:52 AM »

Quote from: Candyman
I hate Philly with a passion. Its a crap hole.


Please, if you do not have anything nice to say do not say it.  These forums are for discussions of Scanning Air Traffic Control and posting positive comments and enguaging in plesant, interesting conversations.

Please respect others who enjoy PHL and it definitely deserves respect.  If you'd like to explain your opinion and/or feeling, please do so.  Comments that are broad are not to be messed with.  I already learned that on these forums in another topic.

Jason
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PHL Approach
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« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2005, 10:42:05 AM »

Mind atleast explaining your reasoning..... rather then just stating an opinion....
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JALTO
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« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2005, 12:06:16 PM »

Quote from: Candyman
I hate Philly with a passion. Its a crap hole.


PHL has its share of ground stops and delays but most are caused by either weather or general traffic delays...something that all airports in the north east corridor of the states experience.

USairwas has had its problems in the past...mostly caused by the union...either understaffing or not working up to their potential.  We all remember the holidays here!  As a frequent traveler at PHL I will say that USairways staff has gotten alot friendlier and more efficient since the winter time.  

Terminal F is one of the nicest looking terminals for RJ's around...something you can not say for some of the other large internations airports.

I think making generalization like "its a crap hole" should be saved for water cooler conversation with your buddies.
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PHL Approach
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« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2005, 03:13:55 PM »

This was a post I made on A.net in a topic about people whining how Philly is always delayed. And then not knowing what they are talking about and blaming it on factors that have nothing to do with the matter at hand.        


      One of the largest reasons for the departure delays is simply the bottleneck at 27L. With taxiways Mike, Lima, November, Sierra Alpha and the east/west sides of Sierra meeting at the same point at 27L doesn't help at all. Not only do you get all those aircraft meeting up at once and need to be sequenced by local control west rather than ground like other airports, which is a very time consuming job for someone working a busy local. Another thing that is not great is the lack of space for blocks. They all taxi out at once, then everybody has different P-times (Proposed Departure times/ Wheels up times) and then no space for someone early to pull off for a little. A major problem is how ZNY and ZDC meet up right at PHL, it's not that they can't coordinate together. It's the fact that two completely separate facilities must run what is called a 'Super Center' and there is only one of those. They must flow departures and arrivals evenly. Now with the implementation of TMA (Traffic Management Advisor) the arrivals get to the metering fixes on time. In this case BUNTS, TERRI, VCN, and SPUDS.
       
       Let me mention another thing, is that the Tracon's airspace is very constricted, I have not really been able to pin point it. Yet, 90% of the US airports run a flow called the 'cornerpost'. Where the arrivals end in the corners. NE, NW, SE, SW. That's an extremely efficient way in bringing in traffic because everything is properly spaced, the blending of two arrivals to create a final is not that difficult. Now in Phillys case, the north fixes are very close and are just in very odd places, the same goes for the south fixes. Now if McGuire was not where it is or if PHL would provide Approach services to WRI, and the Tracon was able to regain some of the SE airspace and a arrival could be placed there. It would cut down on I would say 60% of the arrival delays due to the vectoring done by South Arrival, and what some pilots refer to as the 'Philly Factor'.
       
       If they were able to get that airspace and have an arrival in place to take that traffic and bring them onto a direct base for a the final, then you would not have the delays that happen down in South Arrivals airspace. Now someone said how the runways are just not spaced enough, that's true. Yet, we were the second facility with PRM (Precision Runway Monitor) technology behind MSP. Although it has been OTS for quite some time due to conflicting software issues. Gee, I wonder if it runs off Windows! Although we have that technology, it simply is not used enough due to the facilites low staffing numbers.  
       So around April, Michael Wagner, the PHL Tower Manager, ex EWR Tower Manager put an operation into place called the SAPR2 (Simultaneous Approaches to Parallel Runways '2') and this did the exact thing PRM did. Landing 27L, 26 and Departing 27R and 35 at intersection Kilo as usual. It was used quite a bit through April and May, I even remember one week it was used everyday, all day. Soon after it sort of died out. It was found that when your departing 27R, it's very hard to switch operations back to departures on 27L and arrivals 27R. Now on to something that was used about 2 years ago, which was dubbed the (SAPR) well now (SAPR1) and that was arrivals for 26, 27R and 27L. It was very safe and operationally efficient, that was used ALOT and also died out eventually. It was used during extremely heavy arrival pushes. It died out mainly because the facility does not really like to pull a FLL, where you land and depart on a single runway at the same time. In this case being 27L.
       
       Let me also add about the 35 go arounds that would happen, ehh every once in a while last summer between 27R and 35 arrivals. There was a little application that was put into place called CRDA (Converging Runway Display Aid). What it basically does is let's say you have a SWA 737 on a 4 mile final for 27R. It will then take that aircrafts speed and display a 'ghost' aircraft on the 35 final. So lets say there is a USA A320 on a 8 mile final for 27R, 4 in trail of the SWA 73. So once again a 'ghost' blip will be generated and shown as if it were on Approach to 35. So what you do is shoot an aircraft between that gap of 'ghost' aircraft for 27R and assign a speed to 3-5 miles and your set. With that tool in place it really has killed the amount of go-arounds between 27R and 35. There is a final controller for 35 (Final Vectors 2) and one for 27's/26, the main one known at (Final Vectors One), that has also helped with the amount of arrivals.
       
       A great thing that was worked out and is in play every day and the practice Reduced Longitudinal Separation. They run the finals for both the East Flow and West Flow with only 2.5nm staggered separation or even intrail separation. If you ever get in late or fall behind schedule in the air, don't blame Philly because the main reason would be the low altitude center sector running the arrival or even stuff that happens enroute in the high altitude sectors. As for departures you can't do a damn thing, until the final decision on the 2020 Master Plan is released.  
       The Jet Airways are very cramped in the Northeast now a days. Generally many of the ground stops that you hear about at Philly during the afternoons is because all of a sudden good ol' ZNY feels like shutting down J75 (goes to Atlanta), J6, and J60 for no reason other than 'volume' then soon after ZDC shuts down J79 and J193. Leaving Philly in the middle of the mess leaving no room for departures in any direction and pax bitching about delays that Philly has no control over or any airport for that matter. Many people blame an airport for delays simply because they don't think about what a big role a center plays, let alone two centers overlying an airport, and the fact that they have to control hundreds of the thousands of miles of airspace laterally.
       
       If the center pulls the plug, then terminal area has no say no matter how much traffic is on the ground waiting, granted not much fuel is wasted, they know they will be waiting a while at Philly and shut the engines down right away. I know not many people will read this, or know a damn thing about what I was talking about. So let me save this post just for another 10 times this topic comes up.

Ed
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davolijj
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« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2005, 03:48:41 PM »

That was an interesting post Ed, alot of good information there.

Although it is fashionable to write off PHL as a "crap hole" as some so eloquently put it...I think you could make the same arguement for any busy airport in the Northeast.  How many hours do regional airliners wait in taxi lines at EWR or LGA?  How many aircraft traveling to BOS are assigned EDC times which are 3 or more hours after their P-time?

PHL definitely has issues.  I think bedpost fixes would help a little bit, but I think the real culprit is the airport layout and the convoluted airspace surrounding it.  Another paralell taxiway between 27L and 27R wouldn't be a bad idea to help with the bottleneck problem.  I don't know if there's room, but it's just an idea.

One thing is for certain:  the hostility between pilots and controllers so common at PHL doesn't help matters much.
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JD
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« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2005, 12:39:22 PM »

I listent o Philly alot since I live and fly in Delaware/Pennsylvania. Its more fun when you know the area. I should preface these comments by saying that after reading these boards for a while, I am a pilot, but when it comes to ATC, you guys know your stuff, im a greenhorn rookie.  cheesy  cheesy

Anyway, I agree that PHL clearly has its problems, but it seems to me that the controllers there deserve alot more credit BECAUSE of those problems. They seem to be doing an outstanding job with alot less room and options that alot of other major airports. just my little 2cents.
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Candyman
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« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2005, 01:45:54 PM »

Heres the deal with my crap hole statement:
    First off I’m not complaining about delays, they are all over. I understand that I fly all over the east coast almost everyday. Other places are worse on delays.
   Second, most peoples attitude sucks. Most ramp/gate agents don’t care about there job. I can not count the number of times we landed and were at the gate early just to wait 20 mins for a marshaller to taxi us in and end up late. Most people are very rude there which does not make PHL a pleasure to fly into.
   Third, maybe Ed can answer this. When we land 35 the regional a/c has to land behind the a/c on 27R no matter who is in front of whom. Why is this?  We were 3 mile final for 35 and a 757 was about 6 out for 27R when we were told to slow down. No other a/c for 35 or 27R. Then we were turned to a 300 heading and then 070 then told cleared for the visual for 35 behind the 757 coming over the ship yard caution wake turbulence. Why? Is this a certain controller that has trouble spacing a/c? Is it a rule in PHL? This happens 90% of the time.
   Fourth, when there’s a big line we shut down one or both engines to save on fuel which by the way went to 3.10 today at the gas station. They sometimes read off the next 5 or 10 in line which helps out a lot, but sometimes it’s the wrong order. Okay we all make mistakes but the controllers will get mad and not admit they made one. Sometimes the do not let us know and we are unable to tell the passengers. I don’t care how long the wait is the longer it is the more we get paid, its just nice to know so you don’t get caught off guard.
   Finally, I’ve seen gate agents so rude to customers and dropping the F bomb left and right in front of people. It is always something. There are some very nice gate agents but the bad outweigh the good. The number of incident reports and customer complaints are very high at PHL. There is no need for an agent to meet the flight with a bad attitude b/c they are have a bad day. A passenger does not want a to have a gate agent give them an attitude after they just missed their connecting flight and lost their luggage.
   Also I’m a Steeler fan so that puts the icing on the cake!
All this adds up and gets frustrating. I’m not directing this to anyone I was just making a statement. I’m sure everyone has a place they dislike.  In my opinion PHL is one of the worst places to fly into. It feels as if America has taken all of its crap and centrally located it at Philadelphia, hence the term crap hole.
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JALTO
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« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2005, 04:56:12 PM »

QUOTING...."In my opinion PHL is one of the worst places to fly into. It feels as if America has taken all of its crap and centrally located it at Philadelphia, hence the term crap hole. "

If you think PHL is a crap hole...go ten minutes down the road to Camden NJ....

 http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-11-22-dangerous-cities_x.htm

 cheesy
[/quote]
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