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Author Topic: Showdown at JFK!  (Read 14652 times)
msk1172
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« on: February 13, 2006, 11:24:08 PM »

At 3am the "morning" after the massive blizzard.  Only 2 controllers in Kennedy tower, one runway closed due to the Turkish A340 and a lot of very unhappy pilots wanting to get out of there.  What a mess.   Wouldnt want to be in VIR46!

Enjoy!


Mike
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Greeney
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« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2006, 12:21:20 AM »

That Virgin Pilot was a complete @$$hole. But its all in the name of safety, Nice clips
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Jordan Greene
KMSY
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« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2006, 07:34:08 AM »

Quote from: Greeney
That Virgin Pilot was a complete @$$hole. But its all in the name of safety, Nice clips


I don't think so, he was just doing what he was supposed to, but there just wasn't enough time or patience to do it all.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2006, 08:25:42 AM »

Quote from: Greeney
That Virgin Pilot was a complete @$$hole. But its all in the name of safety, Nice clips


I disagree, too.   The Virgin pilot was doing his job, although he could have reduced the back-and-forth by simply starting off his conversation with "Virgin XXX Heavy requests progressive back to the de-ice pad" or something along those lines.

The ground controller was way too vague, IMO.  "Go back to the ramp" is not an instruction that means anything at a very complex airport such as JFK, especially in this day of runway incursion awareness.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
digger
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« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2006, 09:47:29 AM »

It didn't sound to me as if either the controller or the pilot went out of their way to communicate effectively.

It was as if the pilot was thinking, "if you're going to be deliberately vague in not providing me with a route back to the ramp, I'm going to be too stubborn to specifically request one!"
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DTAK
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« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2006, 12:08:06 PM »

I'm with the pilot all the way.  His requests are met with little quick snarky "wellgototheramp" "whatdoyouwant" comments from the controller.
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dellyjm
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« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2006, 01:50:09 PM »

Ground Control is being having like a punk! These guys don't understand the cost of these aircraft, the A340 isn't the smallest of aircraft!
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msk1172
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« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2006, 02:05:02 PM »

Quote from: dellyjm
Ground Control is being having like a punk! These guys don't understand the cost of these aircraft, the A340 isn't the smallest of aircraft!


Just FYI:

1. That is local control
2. Before you start popping off at ATC for being a "punk", understand that there were only 2 controllers in the tower that whole morning.  Each was clearly pushed to their limit in terms of dealing with the runway closure, aircraft requests, 3 medical emergencies, etc etc.  Also I'll have you know that the tower lost power for about 20 minutes during which they had to run on the backup generator.  
3.  Thats a 747-400, not a A340.



Mike
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2006, 02:18:50 PM »

Quote from: msk1172
2. Before you start popping off at ATC for being a "punk", understand that there were only 2 controllers in the tower that whole morning.  Each was clearly pushed to their limit in terms of dealing with the runway closure, aircraft requests, 3 medical emergencies, etc etc.  Also I'll have you know that the tower lost power for about 20 minutes during which they had to run on the backup generator.


Yep, toss on a few more chainlinks to the accident chain that was unrolling that night.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
jamall02864
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« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2006, 05:11:29 PM »

Quote from: DTAK
I'm with the pilot all the way.  His requests are met with little quick snarky "wellgototheramp" "whatdoyouwant" comments from the controller.



I think the controller could have handled it allot better in the first clip.  I completely agree with you  

In the second clip, I don’t see anything that I see worth commenting on

In the last clip I think that the pilot should have been more professional. They could not get any a/c out. They had lots of a/c to get down that had been holding for 1-2+ hours in the air I think the safety of them is a little more important in the short run. If your on the ground you can refuel but not in the air, but the $$$$  went out the window just sitting there.

But I do see tat the controllers had been on all day and there’s only 2 for 5 spots.

In my opinion I think they should have cancelled most of the flights.
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dellyjm
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« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2006, 05:52:59 PM »

In instances of conditions like these. what's the regulation for flight cancellation?
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The Hoffspatcher
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« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2006, 06:19:06 AM »

Friend of mine is a 744 Captain & Examiner for VIR, these people are great!  cheesy

"Obviously these guys never figured out safety"
'... but we need to save fuel' (something like that)
"Please, just shut up"


Also, I believe a flight will be cancelled if the weather is below perscribed minima at either the destination, alternates or enroute.  

Its specifically written in the Federal Air Regulations and company specific OpSpecs (Operating Specifications)
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Ben Hoffman; BAv, ADX
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Neil
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« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2006, 01:27:11 PM »

I fall on the side of the pilot too. He actually has to explain to the controller at one point that he is moving at the speed he is moving because it isnt safe for him to move faster. He is the pilot in command, and that is his decision to make, and he shouldnt have to argue it over the freq. It seems to me all this could have been avoided with better instruction from the controller. Sure, he was having a busy day, and they are understaffed. That doesnt constitue a need for short cuts or clear directions to traffic operating in bad vis...
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PIT
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« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2006, 04:24:50 PM »

What he controller said was fine, "Go back to the ramp". The pilot should of just said than can i have progressive taxi.
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KMSY
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« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2006, 04:32:54 PM »

Quote from: PIT
What he controller said was fine, "Go back to the ramp". The pilot should of just said than can i have progressive taxi.


If he didn't ask for it directly, he was certainly wanting a certain path to the ramp. He questioned the command "Go back to the ramp" numerous times.
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