Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
September 02, 2014, 02:50:02 AM
Home Help Login Register      
News: NEW Follow LiveATC updates on Twitter and Facebook


+  LiveATC Discussion Forums
|-+  Air Traffic Monitoring
| |-+  Aviation Audio Clips (Moderators: dave, RonR)
| | |-+  Showdown at JFK!
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Showdown at JFK!  (Read 14653 times)
philip
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 129


« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2009, 11:22:19 AM »

The Funny thing about this incident is sometimes what I am faced with, in offices...people expecting me to know what they want...
Both Tower and Pilot making eachother confused because there's no standard comms...
I do like JFK I listen all the time and think they handle busy periods very well...just this one must be a bit of a tough call to say who's wrong or right...
Logged
flygirltammy
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 73



« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2009, 03:25:42 AM »

While both of them really could have communicated a lot bettter and without the sarcasm, I do think Virgin really was just concerned with safety. I can only imagine taxiing at JFK. You need instructions for that, not just basically saying "go over there". Having just been along in the flight deck last week at DAL (one whole taxi in a 737, yaaay!) just crossing from the MX hangar over to the gates needed more instructions than just "go over there".

Easier just to have a little patience and communicate than dealing with an aircraft that just slid off the runway.
Logged

kea001
Guest
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2009, 10:43:28 AM »

The pilot lays out his situation pretty succinctly - I've been sitting here for three hours and I need to go back to the de-icing bay. Give me some direction. This request is pretty common; nothing out of the ordinary here. Yet the controller takes the request as a personal attack and clams up; refuses to deal with the issue. Quite frankly, I'm really shocked by the attitude of this controller. He refuses to accept his own authority in dealing with the situation; i.e. poor weather, backed up airplanes.

You find this attitude prevalent in low level service jobs where training is minimal and resources are scarce. As an example, I get this everytime I phone my internet service provider. The general attitude I encounter is "You don't expect me to be able to handle that do you?" This attitude doesn't cut it in a professional environment.

If you want a good contrast to the way this controller is handling the situation, listen to some of the archives from KIAH - April 17, 2009 - 1900z onwards. A major thunderstorm has moved into the area, everything is at a standstill. One plane even reports a lightning strike while waiting on the taxiway.

In response to the situation, the controller(s) are constantly updating the pilots on the weather situation and what the tower is doing about it in order to alleviate some of the anxiety the pilots are experiencing.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2009, 10:47:57 AM by kea001 » Logged
derg
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 8


« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2009, 03:42:36 PM »

The implication is that JFK only had two controllers working?  As I understand it JFK needs 12 people on duty...see the youtube video about JFK ATC.  If JFK needs 12 and they had only two why was the airport open at all?
Logged
kahuna
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 8


« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2009, 03:22:59 AM »

I understand that the controllers were stretched that night, but regardless of how stretched they were, they should remain helpful and professional. The Virgin pilot calls in very professionally, states the situation clearly and even suggests a way back to the ramp.  Yet for whatever reason, the controller is being an unhelpful, sarcastie jerk.

Pilot: "Unfortunately, we've got ice on the wings so were going to have to go back to the stand"
Pilot: "Can we proceed straight ahead, it's kilo kilo I presume, isn't it?"
Controller: "I don't know sir"

What kinda response is that from a controller? I DON"T KNOW? He's a controller - it is his job to safely get planes from point A to point B.

Pilot: "I said to you sir that we've been out here for 3 hours and we've picked ice up on the wings so we've got to go back to the stand for deicing, what would you like us to do?"
Controller: "Go back to the ramp"

Clearly it was a long night, but "Go back to the ramp" is not helpful to a pilot in a storm in a line of planes on an active taxiway at JFK when moving a 747, IMHO. You can't just drive like its a Costco parking lot. His sarcasm and attitude is really unnerving.  I think the pilot was remarkably controlled given the absolutely unnecessary crap he was taking from the controller and other pilot (clip 3) He's ultimately responsible for the safety of the passengers and plane and its his call to get deiced.
Logged
NY Z Pilot
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 195


« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2009, 09:02:01 AM »

The implication is that JFK only had two controllers working?  As I understand it JFK needs 12 people on duty...see the youtube video about JFK ATC.  If JFK needs 12 and they had only two why was the airport open at all?

only 2 controllers staffed on the overnight shift (mid shift)
Logged
kenadams
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 13


« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2009, 06:36:45 PM »

Very odd conversation. While things like this shouldn't happen, I can understand the stress: I was sitting in LH405 that night - I slept through the whole wait (around three hours: if I remember well, we were number 65 for takeoff when we pushed back), but pilots, crews and ATC weren't as lucky. They had to work through all that chaos: learning that only two controllers were manning the tower makes me appreciate even more the job these guys do to assure we are always separated.
Logged
allynroe
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4


« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2009, 04:56:17 PM »

I think the pilot provided a clear enough description of his situation, and even suggested his desired intentions.  I understandably agree that the controllers were very stressed that night, but they should realize when they are creating a dangerous environment and cure it immediately.  It was the controller who continued to cause grief to the pilot and cause the situation to deteriorate.  Not only is there an immediate risk of an incursion or equipment damage, but there is also the human factors side to consider.  The controller and other pilots caused this pilot to become very frustrated who shortly after departed in a 747.  This frustration could have had negative consequences if an emergency situation arose on departure or could have contributed to any other serious situation.  When you can easily pick and choose when you fly, we are always taught not to fly when we have issues bothering us.  Ultimately, the thousands of passengers at JFK were not provided the safest airport operating environment that night.       
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2011, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!