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Author Topic: Small Mistake on My Part  (Read 21182 times)
Jason
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« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2008, 04:49:59 PM »

I am unable to find at the moment where in the US FARs (aviation regulations) this regulation is spelled out - perhaps this regulation is at the controller's end to ensure a hold short read back occurs?  All I know is that it must be done verbatim, which may be the only instruction here in the US that absolutely has to be done in this manner.

JO 7110.65S 3-7-2(d) which states "d. Request a read back of runway hold short instructions when it is not received from the pilot/vehicle operator."

I'm not aware of any requirement in 14 CFR, but it is spelled out in Advisory Circular 91-73A.  If you don't read it back to ATC, they will ask for it, and you then must comply with the request to read back the hold short instruction.  As an aside, neither the A/FD or the AIM are regulatory so one cannot necessarily trump the other in a legal sense.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2008, 05:14:12 PM by Jason » Logged
KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2008, 05:02:12 PM »

JO 7110.65S 3-7-2(d) which states "d. Request a read back of runway hold short instructions when it is not received from the pilot/vehicle operator."

There it is... the requirement starts on the controller's side.   Thanks, Jason.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
Canadian eh
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« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2008, 02:34:47 PM »

but if i tell you i need a read back and and all you ever read back is "roger" or "wilco", well come on.

What are some examples of your calls that require a read back?


any clearance or instruction. basically any control information. it's partly because we run alot of nonradar traffic and standards. reason being, if i give you a clearance and you don't read it back... i got to protect for worst case scenario. my speciality runs just over 45 airports and we have radar to the ground at 3. if your nonradar and don't read something back, i can't look at the screen and see if your level or doing what your told. 6 of those airports have control zones, hence i separate right to the ground(and need down and clear calls in IFR weather) and a bunch more underlay low level controlled airspace. non radar control takes alot of freq time, getting postion reports, proving guys clear and so on. phraseology is key, the more time I'm not on the mic the more time i have to run guys tighter and solve problems the lest restrictive way. with 2 nonradar aircraft on the same track at the same alt. the biggest time standard is 15 min, the smallest is 5 NM.  best case for 15min is probably a couple c172's doing 120kits, so that's 30NM between them using 15min. worse case is probably a couple f18's(in Canada our fighters, aka. i guy with a hand gun sticking his head out the window, have old unreliable transponders and it's not uncommon to have them flying in FL's nonradar) doing 500kits. little math will tell you that's 125NM between them. to give a guy the same alt using 15min in trail i can base 15min on my es tamates, to use 5 miles i need postion reports among other things. if I'm chasing readbacks all day, i don't have time to get postion reports and prove everything i need too.  ask any low controller that works nonradar daily and he'll probably tell you radar is a crutch. given the choice between radar and DCPC (direct controller to pilot comm) I'd rather talk to them. wonder if the radar controllers see the humour in the crutch. ha ha well hope that helps you understand why we don't like chasing down required info.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2008, 03:07:34 PM »

I'd rather talk to them. wonder if the radar controllers see the humour in the crutch. ha ha well hope that helps you understand why we don't like chasing down required info.

I am in full agreement with you and as an active IFR pilot, my stance has always been to read back anything that could result in a loss of separation if not properly executed, such as headings, altitudes, clearance limits, and in the case of a Bonanza, the very rare speed restriction.   It is only the instruction such as "Frequency changed approved, report back when you return," "Bonanza XXX contact departure," or "Bonanza XXX, squawk XXXX" that I shorten the acknowledgment to just a "wilco, Bonanza XXX" or simply, "Bonanza XXX."


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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2008, 03:25:06 PM »

Speaking of reading back, I feel compelled to share this somewhat scary anecdote that happened to me two weeks ago over NY state en route to White Plains.

I was flying in the clear above a 4,000 foot thick layer of ice laden clouds in the Bonanza when I checked in with Boston Center (who handles aircraft northwest of the NY class B airspace).  Knowing the controllers normally like to step me down in increments of 2,000 feet, at check-in I requested to remain at my present altitude until the controller could descend me to 6,000 feet (below the clouds) due to icing concerns.  My plan to descend, when given the approval, would be to drop through the clouds at about a 1,500-2,000 foot per minute descent to minimize my exposure to the ice.  The controller acknowledged and then perhaps five minutes later, instructed me to descend to 6,000 feet due to traffic. 

I read-back, "Leaving one-one thousand, descending six thousand" and then pulled power and prop back to start the 1,500 fpm descent.  At about 8,500 feet the controller called me to ask "say altitude," which I thought was because my descent rate was greater than typical of a single engine so I responded with it.   At 7,000 he did it again.  I was beginning to get concerned about this questioning when he then came back, "Bonanza XXX, you do recall I told you to descend to 7,500 for traffic." 

What?  I am absolutely positive he originally told me 6,000 feet, but even with a read back he apparently didn't catch what now seemed to be a mistake.  I answered by saying, "Sir, you gave me 6,000.  Would you like me to stop my descent?"  No reply.  I again asked but got no reply.  So I leveled off at 6,000 feet and the controller called me to contact NY Approach.

After landing I filed my third ASRS (avaition safety reporting system), just in case.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
Canadian eh
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« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2008, 02:22:30 AM »

ksyr-pjr, just something to think about. as controllers we often talk about our "spidy sense" going off. there is times when you just get a feeling that something is not right, you never know what it is, just that something is wrong. that's when you stop working normal and start doing board scans (going over your flight strips), scan your radar, double check everything and search til you find whats wrong. normally it's just one of many events that need to line up for a accident to happen but it's like the Swiss cheese theory, if one piece doesn't line up there is no problem. If your spidy sense goes off or someones asking you questions that are not normal, question it. it's better to double check and get some smart remark from a controller then take a run at another aircraft because he or you misunderstood something.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2008, 08:51:09 AM »

If your spidy sense goes off or someones asking you questions that are not normal, question it. it's better to double check and get some smart remark from a controller then take a run at another aircraft because he or you misunderstood something.

I honestly wouldn't know what to ask in this situation, given that there were only two inquires about altitude asked well above my descent limit of 6,000.  Again, I dismissed the first one to the fact that I started a rather aggressive descent rate for the type of aircraft.

I do agree with you about this "Spidy" sense thing, as it certainly has happened on the yoke side of the mike, too.  The key for pilots to develop this, IMO, is to always listen to all radio calls and maintain a good situational awareness picture from the frequency.  The best example of that was the US Airways pilot who refused a takeoff clearance at Providence Airport during low fog when the tower controller did not know where the previously landed aircraft was on the field (a topic recently discussed on these boards).  For GA pilots, though, this can be more difficult given the distractions from passengers, etc.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
davolijj
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« Reply #37 on: June 05, 2008, 11:02:20 PM »

I read-back, "Leaving one-one thousand, descending six thousand" and then pulled power and prop back to start the 1,500 fpm descent.  At about 8,500 feet the controller called me to ask "say altitude," which I thought was because my descent rate was greater than typical of a single engine so I responded with it.   At 7,000 he did it again.  I was beginning to get concerned about this questioning when he then came back, "Bonanza XXX, you do recall I told you to descend to 7,500 for traffic." 

I'm a little confused PJ...it sounds like the controller thought he assigned you a VFR altitude for separation.  The only reason I could see a controller assigning an IFR aircraft a non-cardinal altitude is to stay above a minimum vectoring altitude (MVA) or Minimum IFR altitude (MIA), and I'm not aware of any areas that high in NY State.

I will say this about the EnRoute automation system.  The Center's computer has planned climb and descent profiles for all aircraft types.  If your actual climb or descent rate is outside of the profile for your type, the computer sees the mode-C data as unreliable and displays a XXX in the data block.  I'd guess the descent profile for a BE36 is somewhere between 700-1000 fpm.  It's probably why he asked you to say altitude twice...because he couldn't see it.
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JD
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« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2008, 03:00:53 AM »

ksyr-pjr and davolijj,
first pjr, just something as simple as "center just comfirm we are cleared to 6000?" or "center would you like me to report leaving an alt?". when you requested to not be stepped down cause of ice, as a controller i expect you to descend at a pretty good rate if not your best rate. if you descend at a normal rate, that's fine, i will have planned for a descent anywhere between normal and best rate. I'd plan for both knowing I'm not running any sep. based on your rate of descent. if you give me a heads up something isn't normal, I'll watch you like a hawk and plan for the worst, IE I'd make sure you had alt's open below 6000' in case you need to keep going. your always better to double check if your not sure and there is no such thing as too much info. question for ya, you called yourself a GA pilot, whats GA stand for? i assume your flying something smaller with a "open" cock pit and GA kinda means that or something.
davokjj, not sure how the US system works so this is more of a FYI. our system has profile climbs and descents, but that's just so our system will run est. for us and pass est for us. the system does not use the radar ground speed to run times, it uses the profile for that type of a/c. on a 1 hour flight, if the system gave me 3-4 time updates at dest. I'd call that normal. in regards to mode c readouts, they are what the radar return says, that's it no profile associated. the only time we don't get mode c, besides a equipment failure is if say we have a f-18 coming off the ground and i give him fl280 off the ground and turn him straight over to the high sector for higher. when that happens you'll often see him put it on it's ass and we get read outs til he's doing more than 5000'/min and then the mode c just goes blank cause our system thinks that no a/c will climb that fast. same thing happens on the way down if they are doing a high tacan app and descend from around fl230. the only reason i bring this up is cause if you get a a/c in emergency descent for any reason and he blows his alt. for safety, there is a good chance he's in trouble and is descending as fast as he can which will be outside of the profile. i need those readouts so i can get the rest of my traffic out of the way and give them traffic info. that is accurate. you very well could be right, like i said i don't know the US system, it would just suprise me that that is the way it works for the reason i stated alone. had to read that last sentence about 4 time, hope it makes sense.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2008, 08:03:26 AM »

I'm a little confused PJ...it sounds like the controller thought he assigned you a VFR altitude for separation.  The only reason I could see a controller assigning an IFR aircraft a non-cardinal altitude is to stay above a minimum vectoring altitude (MVA) or Minimum IFR altitude (MIA), and I'm not aware of any areas that high in NY State.

Hey, JD, good to see you - it's been awhile.   Not being a controller I can only surmise about that rather secretive MVA number (secretive in that there is no published document that pilots can get their hands on to see what MVAs are around the country).   This is what I learned by commuting west and south over NY state the last few years (the point follows):

Flying from Buffalo to Syracuse, NY, along a route below the NY State Thruway the MVA is 4,000 until about 20nm out.  The trick I learned to get lower if needed is to have the controller vector north of the Thruway, where the MVA drops to 2,100 or so.   Flying from Elmira, NY, (southern central NY) up to Syracuse the MVA is 5,000 until about 15nm out and then it drops to 3,600.  The point here is that these are routes without any significant mountains, just hills and towers.

Flying from Syracuse down to White Plains the preferred lower IFR route takes one adjacent to the point of the Catskill Mountains where the peaks are around 4,100.  Not mountains when compared to out west but toss in a tower and it is very conceivable that the MVA is at least 6,500.  If there were an aircraft at that altitude and knowing I wanted to get as low as possible to avoid the ice the controller was thinking 7,500?  I can only guess here.

Regarding Boston and NY Approach assigning non-cardinal altitudes, the airspace north and northwest of NY's class B is dedicated to the big jets arriving into Newark, La Guardia, and even JFK airports.  From flying down there weekly since February I have concluded that there seem to be a different set of ATC strategies in that airspace than in others, and one is to use non-cardinal altitudes.  For example, to fly a lower IFR route northwest out of White Plains an aircraft is always assigned 9,000 feet as an initial altitude (should be 8 or 10 for that direction), despite filing for 4, 6, or 8,000.  All that airspace below 9,000 is used to step-down aircraft into the big airports, or as often the case, to hold aircraft.  Smiley 

Oh, and my aircraft's designator is a BE35 (V35), not BE36.  Smiley   Maybe someday...

Canadian Eh - GA stands for General Aviation and typically it means a pilot who is not flying scheduled air carrier flight.  It could be any aircraft from a Citation down to an open-cockpit Stearman.  GA also implies a bit more flexibility since the rules are more flexible than the more rigid rules associated with Part 121 (scheduled service) and Part 135.  I fly a Bonanza V35 out Monday and back Thursdays to commute between my customers' locations and home.   

In terms of querying ATC, if my "Spidy sense" tingles I have no problem doing just that.  But in this case, by the time the Spidy sense went off the controller soon thereafter demonstrated the reason for it.  Perhaps next time, though, I will add that question to my altitude response upon a controller first asking me to say altitude.  Like a lot of aspects of flying IFR, many are not learned until first experienced.

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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
Hollis
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« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2008, 10:47:22 AM »

ATC - 'say altitude'
Pilot - 'altitude'
ATC - 'SAY ALTITUDE!'
Pilot 'ALTITUDE'
ATC - say 'cancel IFR'
Pilot - 'level at 6000'

(Sorry - an old joke...couldn't resist!)
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zmeatc
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« Reply #41 on: June 06, 2008, 07:44:40 PM »

Also, center controllers are now required to get readback on all alt. assignments. I think its a great idea.
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Canadian eh
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« Reply #42 on: June 06, 2008, 08:21:21 PM »

ksyp-pjr, thanks for the info. got another one for ya or whoever can help me out. we have a system that "talks" to the US system and so I'm not required to pass est.'s to the states. but when i get a flight coming from the states the equipment suffix's are different and i don't know what they mean. IE, D,A,O and so on. i got a live est. from the states on a guy that should have been app req'd, meaning he was lees than the required time of 15min from entering my airspace, that had a clearance to 100' and he was about 15NM from my airspace when this all took place. this happens all the time in my sector and we have learned to live with it. i have to consider the a/c nonradar until i get a verbal handoff from Minni. the problem with this is the departure airport is about 20NM south of my airspace so i gotta protect from the ground up to 100' from departure to dest., 10NM either side of track if gps equipped until i can prove nonradar with any other traffic i have. if he's standard equipped i gotta protect 45NM either side of track which inturn means i gotta keep everybody out of a chuck of airspace 90NM wide and from ground to 100', that pretty much covers my entire airspace.  kinda sucks cause the second that strip comes out of my printer, I'm in a loss if i got anybody in that airspace. since Minni rarely app req's we have to go fix the loss (most times just go get radar identification or give a crossing restriction or something) and put a form of sep. in place. so when Minni called to hand the guy off to me, i said "what does slant delta and slant Oscar stand for?". he kinda didn't want to answer cause i think he thought we were in a loss depending on what it meant. he said "Ah you know what, show him as slant Alpha.". and of course i come back and say "roger, what does slant alpha mean also?".  basically we beat around the bush and i gave up asking without getting a answer. the only reason i wanted to know is because if i don't know what it means i gotta protect worst case always which means 45NM either side of track and that's not cool.
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