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Author Topic: They'll give a pilot's license to anyone these days  (Read 51405 times)
SkanknTodd
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« on: March 12, 2008, 09:45:39 PM »

A mooney decides to stop on an active runway...
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NY Z Pilot
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« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2008, 11:23:52 PM »

wow!!! thats funny!

[Mod: Edited for language.  Try to keep it clean for all of our users.]
« Last Edit: March 13, 2008, 08:42:46 AM by Jason » Logged
KASWspotter
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« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2008, 12:20:06 AM »

That guy sounded like he didnt have a clue in the world about what he was doing.
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penguin44
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« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2008, 09:11:51 AM »

Correct me if I am wrong, it happens, but if you land that runway is yours no one can land/taxi on it until you clear it. Sounds like he was wanting to taxi somewhere. It wasn't clear. I know STOPPING on the active is not a good thing ever and should exit when able, but that runway should be his if he was the only aircraft on it. I know there was traffic behind him, but the runway was his.
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A_J_D_C
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« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2008, 10:06:51 AM »

Wow, intense, its a bit hard to tell, maybe the clip has been edited, but correct me if I'm wrong, its to my understanding that a TWR controller is not allowed to issue and landing clearance to any more than 1 (ONE), A/C at a time. Now although the second A/C was issued a Clear touch and Go  clearance, its as good as a landing clearance. The reason only 1 A/C can be issued a "clear to land" is a prime example in this clip. The second A/C is on final, has been cleared to T&G, he is now setting up for the touch and go making sure everythings right, then at what ever point the twr has issued a go around. If the twr hadn't issued a T&G instead issued a "expect a late landing", the 79 delta would have been more prepared for a go around. Too bad if the 79 was a full stop landing. So too my original question. i thought only 1 A/C can be issued a clearance for the rwy, when that A/C is cleared of the active, the next in line is then issued a clearance to use the rwy?
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NY Z Pilot
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« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2008, 10:19:34 AM »

you can have a mooney land, then have a cessna land behind it while the mooney is still on the runway, i think the separaton is 4500ft. That was my hometown airport...seems like he landed 32, and was asking permission to cross the intersecting 1/19. He requested Echo ramp, which is on the other side of 1/19. Guess he didnt know once hes cleared to land on 32, he owns that whole runway...time to hit the books again!
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Jason
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« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2008, 10:31:58 AM »

you can have a mooney land, then have a cessna land behind it while the mooney is still on the runway, i think the separaton is 4500ft. That was my hometown airport...seems like he landed 32, and was asking permission to cross the intersecting 1/19. He requested Echo ramp, which is on the other side of 1/19. Guess he didnt know once hes cleared to land on 32, he owns that whole runway...time to hit the books again!

JO 7110.65S §3-10-3(a) allows 3,000 feet separation between Category I aircraft landing behind a Category I/II.  Can you imagine 5 or 10 of these guys all trying to land at the same time?  Yup, that's DXR on a sunny summer weekend.  Luckily there's too much bizjet and airline traffic at HPN to attract these non-proficient pilots.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2008, 10:37:23 AM by Jason » Logged
kkjlai
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« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2008, 01:31:02 PM »

Try Oshkosh..  up to 3 planes can land on a runway (but at different threshold, called "dots" ? ) at one time.. 
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SkanknTodd
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« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2008, 02:26:36 PM »

Wow, intense, its a bit hard to tell, maybe the clip has been edited, but correct me if I'm wrong, its to my understanding that a TWR controller is not allowed to issue and landing clearance to any more than 1 (ONE), A/C at a time. Now although the second A/C was issued a Clear touch and Go  clearance, its as good as a landing clearance. The reason only 1 A/C can be issued a "clear to land" is a prime example in this clip. The second A/C is on final, has been cleared to T&G, he is now setting up for the touch and go making sure everythings right, then at what ever point the twr has issued a go around. If the twr hadn't issued a T&G instead issued a "expect a late landing", the 79 delta would have been more prepared for a go around. Too bad if the 79 was a full stop landing. So too my original question. i thought only 1 A/C can be issued a clearance for the rwy, when that A/C is cleared of the active, the next in line is then issued a clearance to use the rwy?

The clip was edited down from about 10 mins to only the relevant stuff.  At republic, if you have your traffic to follow in sight, and no one will be taking off ahead of you, they'll issue a landing clearance.  If they do decide to depart an aircraft ahead of you, they will cancel the clearance and reissue it once the plane is rolling.  Republic was using 19 and the mooney was asking if he could cross intersecting runway 14-32 to make a right turn onto Alpha which would take him to the Echo Ramp.  Apparently, he started turning off the runway and then turned back on.

Here's a link to the airport diagram...

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0802/00704AD.PDF
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coz
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« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2008, 07:14:34 PM »

Feel bad for the pilot.  He was obviously lagging behind everything that was going on with the missed radio calls, etc.  Of course, never stay on the runway after you land, but still with a controller yelling at you like that it sure doesn't help things.

The pilot should not have frozen up on the runway and may want to get some radio practice in.

The controller should have simply issued a go-around and not gotten all flustered and yelled at the guy.

P.S.  If you are ever given a number to call--throw it away.
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RHZ100
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« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2008, 07:51:32 PM »

Not sure what is funnier, eye eye sir or the jesus mary and joseph. 

but really, Eye Eye, Sir??!!?? 

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bogman
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« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2008, 08:37:08 PM »




P.S.  If you are ever given a number to call--throw it away.


Are you not obliged to call ATC if they request it?

Not a pilot so not sure......... grin
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tyketto
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« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2008, 08:45:21 PM »

I haven't listened to the clip yet, but I do have a question.

Was the pilot in question given the option? If so, he is in the right to stop on the runway. If he wasn't, that's another story altogether.

Quote
but correct me if I'm wrong, its to my understanding that a TWR controller is not allowed to issue and landing clearance to any more than 1 (ONE), A/C at a time.

Not entirely true, at least in the US. As we hear on other feeds, more than one aircraft can be cleared to land, even 7 - 10 miles out on final, let alone be #3 or #4 for the runway. But once again, it all depends on what the pilot is doing. In this case, if the pilot was going to land full stop, touch/go, or low approach, those #2 and #3 could be cleared to land. If he was stop and go, those inbound would be extended out on their downwind or given a longer final to accommodate the stop/go.

BL.
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Jason
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« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2008, 08:53:59 PM »


P.S.  If you are ever given a number to call--throw it away.


Are you not obliged to call ATC if they request it?

Not a pilot so not sure......... grin

If you receive one for a possible pilot deviation and don't call, you could very well face a violation.  If you call and sort it out with them (and it didn't cause a loss of separation) you're usually off the hook.  Not calling the number is definitely not a good way to deal with it.

I haven't listened to the clip yet, but I do have a question.

Was the pilot in question given the option? If so, he is in the right to stop on the runway. If he wasn't, that's another story altogether.

He was issued a full landing clearance, not an option.

Quote
but correct me if I'm wrong, its to my understanding that a TWR controller is not allowed to issue and landing clearance to any more than 1 (ONE), A/C at a time.

Not entirely true, at least in the US. As we hear on other feeds, more than one aircraft can be cleared to land, even 7 - 10 miles out on final, let alone be #3 or #4 for the runway. But once again, it all depends on what the pilot is doing. In this case, if the pilot was going to land full stop, touch/go, or low approach, those #2 and #3 could be cleared to land. If he was stop and go, those inbound would be extended out on their downwind or given a longer final to accommodate the stop/go.

BL.


The local controller can issue landing clearances to multiple aircraft, but is not authorized to clear an aircraft for a full-stop, touch-and-go, stop-and-go, option, or unrestricted low approach if another aircraft has been instructed to taxi into position and hold, is taxiing into position, or is holding in position on the same runway (which is why you often hear the phrase "continue" for aircraft on a 5 or 10 mile final) without a waiver or when the "safety logic system to that runway is in full core alert runway configuration."  Once the departing aircraft starts rolling, the controller can issue the clearance. (JO 7110.65S §3-10-5(b))  This is a relatively new addition to the 7110 (within the last year).
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coz
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« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2008, 02:26:29 AM »


P.S.  If you are ever given a number to call--throw it away.


Are you not obliged to call ATC if they request it?

Not a pilot so not sure......... grin

If you receive one for a possible pilot deviation and don't call, you could very well face a violation.  If you call and sort it out with them (and it didn't cause a loss of separation) you're usually off the hook.  Not calling the number is definitely not a good way to deal with it.

ition to the 7110 (within the last year).

Obviously there is more than one correct answer here, but I will give more information on my side of things.  If *I* had been in that situation I most definately would have copied down the phone number, read it back, never called, and filed a NASA ASRS report.

If you call up, and discuss it, any information you give them will be used if they decide to issue a violation.  If you don't call and don't give them any information, and they issue you a violation, then you have a good amount of time to come up with an appropriate response with the help of an aviation attorney as well as time to file a NASA safety report before the violation gets filed.

One other reason NOT to call: "..One of the most difficult elements for the FAA to prove on appeal may be the identity of the pilot-in-command of the aircraft at the time of the alleged violation." (Practical Aviation Law -- HAMILTON)

This also includes answering the question "Did you have an engine failure or something?" I would have responded "Request taxi to xxxx", reverted to absolute standard phraseology and said nothing else.  They are going to have a difficult time proving that you took longer than necessary to vacate the runway as it is a bit subjective.  Exactly how much time is necessary?

Of course Jason has a very valid point, and that is if you call and work things out in a polite manner and apologize, then they most likely won't write you up and it will be a non-issue.   The problem is, once they write you up, and you called them and apologized and admitted what you did, the violation is a lot more likely to stick.

So for me at least, it is pretend to copy the number, and then never call--of course, I haven't actually been given a phone number to call yet.

-------
One other thing (offtopic), if ever asked when I broke out of the clouds?  I respond "above minimums".   Don't want to give a number and then realize too late that I was reading the wrong minimums or something else...


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