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Author Topic: They'll give a pilot's license to anyone these days  (Read 48782 times)
Jason
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« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2008, 06:26:03 AM »

Of course Jason has a very valid point, and that is if you call and work things out in a polite manner and apologize, then they most likely won't write you up and it will be a non-issue.   The problem is, once they write you up, and you called them and apologized and admitted what you did, the violation is a lot more likely to stick.

So for me at least, it is pretend to copy the number, and then never call--of course, I haven't actually been given a phone number to call yet.

Well, no doubt you have to mind what you say because you're talking with an FAA representative, but you have a better chance of getting off if you don't blow off the call completely.  The FAA isn't stupid when they violate you, they do research.  Be careful what you say, and consult with a reputable aviation lawyer before you make the call.  Nothing says you must make the call before you leave the airport.  Go home, debrief yourself about the incident, call a lawyer and talk it out with him/her, file a NASA ASRS report, and then call the facility having planned what you're going to/not going to say.  Luckily, I have a good friend who is an aviation lawyer should something arise.

If you fly for a living, it's a matter of having a violation in your file or not (especially if you're thinking of applying for another job).  Anything to help stay violation and warning letter free is worth it, even if it means talking with the facility using selected phrases and words.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2008, 06:29:20 AM by Jason » Logged
KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2008, 09:42:20 AM »

Not sure what is funnier, eye eye sir or the jesus mary and joseph. 

And now for a dissenting opinion:   

The "Jesus, Mary, and Joseph.. COME ON!" comment by the approaching pilot IMO was completely unnecessary and could have actually partially blocked an important ATC instruction, ultimately contributing to the confusion.   What was that pilot doing there?  Touch and goes, right?   So, instead of one T&G he got to practice a go-around, which actually is a very valuable lesson given that some GA pilots get into trouble with these every year.    Agree or not, to me this comment was an example of an alarmingly increasing air-rage mentality that was once non-existent in GA.  There is absolutely no room for this mentality when there is so much at stake.

One more point that no one has yet brought up.  Yes, on the surface here this incident demonstrated very, very poor and dangerous piloting skills on the part of the subject pilot but consider this:  The pilot that caused this incident in this clip sounded like a very elderly male.  Couple this with the fact that he was flying a Mooney suggests to me that he probably had his certificate a long time.  I would offer that this incident was not due to his lack of experience as a pilot but rather due to age-induced incompetence.   

Don't misunderstand me - this incident should force the pilot to evaluate whether he should ever take to the air without a pilot-rated passenger again.  But it also underscores the fact that the average age for the GA pilot base is actually on the increase (not enough young people becoming pilots) and the US third class medical does not really have a method for determining one's declining mental acuity, an issue that faces automobile licensing, too.


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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
RV1
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« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2008, 10:58:38 AM »

If you decide to consult a lawyer or someone else before making the call, understand this... if I have an 'encounter' with a pilot, I, or the supe/cic has the final call to declare it a pilot deviation or not. Even though it may actually be a dev. We try to educate rather than prosecute. We don't get bonuses for issuing devs. If you call the facility soon after the incident, you have a better chance of getting to talk to the controllers involved. If you wait, you most likely won't get them, you will get the next shift, or the next day's crew. Now, in order for them to have any idea about what you're calling about, there has to be some information entered somewhere for these people, hence, it becomes official. Talking it over before they have to log any of the particulars, allows it to stay 'in-house' and stay a non-event. We have certain timelines that we must follow and certain words we must say.
 
A clearance to land is NOT a clearance to park on a runway. A stop and go gives the pilot a descretion as to the amount of time he spends on a runway. Cleared to land, cleared for touch and go, etc doesn't. If you want to park, go to the ramp. You are expected to exit an active runway at your first available, safe exit point. Even staying on the runway full length to exit at the end, requires permission. Additionally, pilots should be aware of other 'traffic' on the freq and what they might be doing.

Age does have a large part in some pilots' abilities/skill. We have had many pilots that bore-sighted other planes because they were doing something other than flying...

Most controllers have certain opinions about Mooney/Bonanza pilots, but I'll not go there today.
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Kick butt, take no names, they dont matter anyways
GanderGander
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« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2008, 11:28:46 AM »

Hello all, i was the instructor in question for the 'sweet mary and joseph come on'

Ksyr-pjr-I do not suffer from air rage, what i do suffer from is a lack of patience for incompetence.

We are flying planes, not driving golfcarts, which is what this guy, should have been doing instead.

Flying should not be considered recreational, those who consider it as such should be partaking in less daunting ventures.

P.S i could have blurted something much worst, and if i was truly causing confusion, i would have had to make a phonecall as well...so please Ksyr, leave your armchair piloting to the flight simulator.
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JALTO
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« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2008, 12:18:16 PM »


P.S i could have blurted something much worst, and if i was truly causing confusion, i would have had to make a phonecall as well...so please Ksyr, leave your armchair piloting to the flight simulator.


So in this case you being an FAA certified instructure do you think you were setting a bad example for your student in proper phraseology over the radio?

PS..I'm a armchair pilot....KSYR-PJR is a real world pilot and coments like that have no place here. 
« Last Edit: March 14, 2008, 01:05:15 PM by JALTO » Logged
GanderGander
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« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2008, 01:14:29 PM »

thank you for the ethics class Jalto, ill be sure to use proper phraseology from now on
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Aardvark
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« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2008, 01:15:05 PM »

Gander, not everyone can be as perfect as you. People make mistakes and you not only made the situation worse, but you didn't confim the go around. Keep that crap in the cockpit - why would you xmit it? Poor guy dosen't need that when he is already confused enough. I would have hated to have you as an instructor.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2008, 01:22:15 PM »

Hello all, i was the instructor in question for the 'sweet mary and joseph come on'

You were the one who made that comment AND you supposedly are a CFI?  Hmmm.... Sorry to point this out chief, but blurting that out over the air sets an extremely poor example for your students and you being an instructor only strengthens my opinion of your actions.

Ksyr-pjr-I do not suffer from air rage, what i do suffer from is a lack of patience for incompetence.

And is it REALLY your place to offer this critique over the air?  Not in my opinion or experience. 

so please Ksyr, leave your armchair piloting to the flight simulator.

LOL!  Squawking like that won't get you a free cup of coffee out of me.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
coz
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« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2008, 03:45:38 PM »

Hello all, i was the instructor in question for the 'sweet mary and joseph come on'

Ksyr-pjr-I do not suffer from air rage, what i do suffer from is a lack of patience for incompetence.

We are flying planes, not driving golfcarts, which is what this guy, should have been doing instead.

Flying should not be considered recreational, those who consider it as such should be partaking in less daunting ventures.

P.S i could have blurted something much worst, and if i was truly causing confusion, i would have had to make a phonecall as well...so please Ksyr, leave your armchair piloting to the flight simulator.


I have to agree that the comment by the CFI (if that was you) was almost just as disturbing to me as the way the controller yelled at the pilot.

If everyone had not been so caught up in yelling at the poor guy, and instead of yelling and repeating "get off the runway!" the local controller just said "exit first left, you can exit onto the inactive runway there if you want, please keep it moving" I bet you would not have had to go around.  I would say everyone's attitude at the field and the way in which they talked to this guy was a significant factor in this case.

I hope I never have to visit this field.

The poor guy has already been given a number to call, he doesn't need more headache from you.

Personally I would rather share the skies with the old guy in the Mooney, who when unsure of what to do, and if it is OK to taxi onto an inactive runway stops and asks for clarification.  Yes you had to do a go-around, so what?  To me this is safer than a guy who has an ego or are smug about their ability as a pilot.  There is no room for egos in aviation.  It is a dangerous mix.
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mk
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« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2008, 04:17:50 PM »

yeah..throw away the number and throw away your certificate.  like RV1 said, the phone call will most likely result in educating the pilot WHY what he did was not looked highly upon. 

an aircraft violated the ADIZ around DC during the week,  they intercepted, turned him out, talked to him on freq, and told him he'd be meet at his destination (ROA)  by law enforcement and FAA.  Well, the high performance twin who was VFR made a descent to land then ducked below radar and never showed.  DUMB DUMB DUMB.  if you're talking to ATC or the DOD in this case on the radio they have your tail number.  now this guy will probably end up in jail...he WILL lose his certificate and his flying job.

be smart...call the facility. learn from the mistake. 
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2008, 06:50:11 PM »

Most controllers have certain opinions about Mooney/Bonanza pilots, but I'll not go there today.

I'm on a one-man crusade to change this perception.  Is it working?
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Nah, I didn't think so either.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
w0x0f
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« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2008, 07:40:14 PM »

Most controllers have certain opinions about Mooney/Bonanza pilots, but I'll not go there today.

I'm on a one-man crusade to change this perception.  Is it working?
.
.
.
.
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Nah, I didn't think so either.

Well Peter, if it is any consolation, it seems that Cirrus owners have become the 21st century version of this stereotype.

w0x0f
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Jason
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« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2008, 07:55:32 PM »

Hello all, i was the instructor in question for the 'sweet mary and joseph come on'

Ksyr-pjr-I do not suffer from air rage, what i do suffer from is a lack of patience for incompetence.

We are flying planes, not driving golfcarts, which is what this guy, should have been doing instead.

Flying should not be considered recreational, those who consider it as such should be partaking in less daunting ventures.

P.S i could have blurted something much worst, and if i was truly causing confusion, i would have had to make a phonecall as well...so please Ksyr, leave your armchair piloting to the flight simulator.

thank you for the ethics class Jalto, ill be sure to use proper phraseology from now on

As a pilot, I have no choice but to echo what the others have said in response to your first post in this thread.  As a CFI, you should have the utmost patience for inefficiency and a willing attitude to correct these issues.  Most CFI's take this responsibility very seriously.

As a moderator of these forums and administrator at LiveATC.net, your sarcastic remarks and personal attacks against our members are not appreciated.  You've made your point (by insulting other members and showing your disrespect for safety) and I will not hesitate to remove any of your future posts if you continue to express yourself in this fashion.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2008, 07:58:27 PM by Jason » Logged
Hollis
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« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2008, 11:20:00 PM »

Gentlemen, gentlemen, relax!
If you go back and listen to the clip very carefully, you will understand exactly what transpired. If not, listen again. I have a few comments, but will withhold them.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2008, 08:11:30 AM »

Well Peter, if it is any consolation, it seems that Cirrus owners have become the 21st century version of this stereotype.

Aviation evolution in action.   Sorry to read that the torch is being passed instead of extinguished. 
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
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