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Author Topic: They'll give a pilot's license to anyone these days  (Read 50160 times)
mhawke
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« Reply #60 on: April 27, 2008, 04:48:21 PM »


I was not aware that commercial aircraft were allowed intersection departures (apparently they are, but maybe airline ops manuals prohibit this now?) and had assumed initially that the aircraft waiting to go was right at the runway end.   


Unless I was confused (which could easily be the case), I have been a passenger on quite a few commercial planes that departed from intersections at O'Hare.  I presumed they were using that to break up the departing planes into a couple lines (just a guess).
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aviator_06
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« Reply #61 on: April 27, 2008, 08:54:47 PM »

wow, sounds like this guys first time into a controlled airport.
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chinois3legged
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KORD to KBOS


« Reply #62 on: April 28, 2008, 09:19:54 PM »

Thats amazing
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bcrosby
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« Reply #63 on: April 29, 2008, 11:48:03 PM »

We've been using the "line up and wait" phraseology for the past month here in Canada.

Other than the occasional "Taxi to posi..errr line up and wait" from an occasional controller, the new phraseology isn't that bad.

Standardization is good, even if it sounds silly.
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RV1
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« Reply #64 on: April 30, 2008, 06:55:52 AM »

Why didn't ICAO and the ATCS of the other countries get on board with 'position and hold'? Weren't we here first!

You guys in Canada don't require the rest of the world to say 'Eh' after every sentence, do you?!

In your reading of call signs, for Z do you say zulu or zed? cheesy
« Last Edit: April 30, 2008, 06:59:19 AM by RV1 » Logged

Kick butt, take no names, they dont matter anyways
Totalbeginner
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« Reply #65 on: May 17, 2008, 05:29:35 PM »

I don't understand why that controller was making such a fuss! Ok the guy didn't exit the runway but, that shouldn't cause anything more than a go-around. The aircraft on final would not have been cleared to land therefore, instead of screaming down the radio, he should have simply requested that the aircraft go-around and then enquire as to the other guys problem. Very unprofessional RTF in my opinion.
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pepitogrillo
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« Reply #66 on: June 04, 2008, 10:49:46 AM »

Why didn't ICAO and the ATCS of the other countries get on board with 'position and hold'? Weren't we here first!

You guys in Canada don't require the rest of the world to say 'Eh' after every sentence, do you?!

In your reading of call signs, for Z do you say zulu or zed? cheesy


 For the most part, "position and hold" isn´t used in Europe as it maybe confused with "hold position" by another aircraft listening while performing the approach or established on final, who may not notice that an aircraft has been cleared into the active runway. As stupid as "line up and wait" may sound, it´s safer generally speaking as it can never be confused with any other instruction (following strict RTF phraseology) Same thing happened years ago with "ready for take-off" and "ready for departure".

 

 
« Last Edit: June 04, 2008, 10:51:17 AM by pepitogrillo » Logged
jstflyin
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« Reply #67 on: June 30, 2008, 07:53:40 AM »


Concerning the main subject.. originally the 77F pilot would have been 100% guilty of failing to communicate and operate effectively. He failed, but instead of correcting his failures and understanding how to clear the conflict, the ATCO and the following behind pilot put more pressure under him by issuing non standard phraseology and raising their voice to a clearly emotional level. Emotional reactions are usually not the best.. why couldn't the ATCO (if using non standard R/T) explain him calmly what the problem was..?

Talking about EU Land.. we say e.g.: "Behind landing KLM FOKKER 70 line up runway 29er behind".
There is no use for line up and "wait" in my opinion as a line up clears you for lining up only..

"Hold", if even, is only used for taxi instructions "taxi via A hold short E". There again if you are cleared to "taxi via A A2" this means A2 is your clearance limit..even without a hold short.

Great forum enjoy it alot..

J.
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RV1
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« Reply #68 on: July 01, 2008, 11:42:28 PM »

I'll admit that 'position and hold' has the potential to be confused with 'hold position'. That's partly because a year ago they changed it from 'TAXY INTO position and hold'.
   I would have to say that ' "Behind landing KLM FOKKER 70 line up runway 29er behind". seems rather redundant, is conditional and allows for some confusion should you have more than on KLM Fokker on final. As it is with most U.S. larger airports, the number of planes trying to land on the same runway at the same time may not allow us to define the aircraft type and ownership to the departing airplane prior to us giving him a 'position and hold' or a 'line up and wait clearance'. We feel fortunate when the pilots are able to see the runway/taxiway in front of them and any plane that might be occupying said runway/taxiway, let alone an airplane on final!  cheesy
 
 No harm intended to anyone.
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minetruly
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« Reply #69 on: July 10, 2008, 01:54:29 AM »

What I hear is,

1. The mooney confirms ATC's statement he is clear to land

2. Chatter between other flights

3. ATC says "Mooney 77F, turn off the runway please."

4. Mooney says "Sorry sir to Echo, can we cross the main runway?"

5. ATC starts shouting "Get off the runway!" without answering Mooney's request for clarification.

Might this be what Hollis is referring to?
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mjans17
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« Reply #70 on: July 11, 2008, 01:19:34 PM »

I feel the controllers pain.  I work at a tower with a lot of that going on!!!!
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RV1
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« Reply #71 on: July 11, 2008, 11:05:14 PM »

At the risk of receiving some bashing from those with differing opinions, I want to hopefully provide some food for thought...
   The controller provides a traffic call to the mooney, with no response. He then attempts to contact the mooney several times and finally gets an acknowledgement from the mooney pilot. This is extremely irritating to a controller because when this happens, you're not sure if the a/c went NORDO, has a bad radio, or you have a pilot who doesn't/isn't listening. This set the stage for the controller to become agitated.
   When the mooney is cleared to land, there is a Cessna on the downwind told to follow, doing touch and goes. The Cessna pilot is told about tfc on a five mile final that will be following him. This means that it isn't as simple as "Go Around", because there is another a/c on final BEHIND the Cessna that's going around. Will he have to go around as well? The controller is ascertaining if he has the room necessary for his sequence when he notices that the mooney is parked on the runway. Am I surmising? Probably, but we all do just that. We set a sequence then monitor it to make sure that it will work. When something happens that changes the normalcy, it means that everything else will have to be adjusted.
   I may not like how it came across that the controller talked to the pilot, but in his defense, sometimes you feel that you have to speak in very basic, albeit somewhat harsh terms to get a pilot to do something when it appears that he has frozen in place. We once had a C310 pilot not take a turn when we needed it because he started to argue about whether or not he could go on course. After the fourth time of telling him to turn, (he was head-on towards a Kingaire) we resorted to scolding/admonishing/sternly telling him to TURN NOW, JUST TURN!
   
    Well, let the bashing begin...
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Kick butt, take no names, they dont matter anyways
Kleer2land
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« Reply #72 on: March 27, 2009, 02:08:17 AM »




P.S.  If you are ever given a number to call--throw it away.

If you throw that number away you are going to have much bigger issues than not making the turn off. You are actually required to make the call and in 99 percent of cases the call will prevent any paperwork being filed.




Are you not obliged to call ATC if they request it?

Not a pilot so not sure......... grin
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Jason
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« Reply #73 on: March 27, 2009, 06:20:06 AM »

Yes, you are required to call if requested. Unless you like receiving notice that your certificate is under review for a pilot deviation and subject to suspension or revocation in the mail, or through your lawyer. Personally, I'm not one of those guys. It's easy to pick up the phone; the controllers are just doing their job.
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kea001
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« Reply #74 on: March 27, 2009, 08:16:53 AM »

After the fourth time of telling him to turn, (he was head-on towards a Kingaire) we resorted to scolding/admonishing/sternly telling him to TURN NOW, JUST TURN!
   
    Well, let the bashing begin...

At the risk of sounding facetious,  why isn't there any phraseology for 'disaster is imminent - follow these instructions'?
ATC needs a phrase that facilitates bringing the hammer down.

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