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Author Topic: They'll give a pilot's license to anyone these days  (Read 51412 times)
KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #75 on: March 27, 2009, 09:58:31 AM »

At the risk of sounding facetious,  why isn't there any phraseology for 'disaster is imminent - follow these instructions'?
ATC needs a phrase that facilitates bringing the hammer down.

There is:  Immediately.
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Regards, Peter
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cessna157
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« Reply #76 on: March 27, 2009, 04:48:57 PM »

At the risk of sounding facetious,  why isn't there any phraseology for 'disaster is imminent - follow these instructions'?
ATC needs a phrase that facilitates bringing the hammer down.

Expedite or Immediate come to mind.

Also, somewhere in 7110.65 it says the controller is to use everyday english to get the point across if standard phraseology isn't getting the job done.

If a controller told me to "Turn now, just turn" I'd take the hint that I should probably relocate myself to a spot other than the one I am currently in.
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CRJ7/CRJ9 F/O, Travel Agent
otto_pilot
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« Reply #77 on: March 28, 2009, 10:22:55 AM »

OK so this from the perspective from an 18 year old about 9 flights into the instrument rating. OK i have never been yelled at by a controller but on the flight portion of my Private my examiner yelled the whole time. on the ground he was the a good guy. he flew in WW2 for god sake i heard some good stories bec. we were fogged in for 2 hours. This all happened in September so this man is old and is stuck on his old ways which i like. Well i got off topic but as soon as we got in the air he yelled at me the whole time and when he got happy about something he reached over and hit me in the arm. kinda hard too. We get on the ground and he just got out and went into the FBO and i think i for sure failed just because he was yelling at me the whole flight but when i was post flighting the plane i could not figure out how i could have failed; i thought i was spot on that day. I was so stressed the whole flight because i was being yelled at. Long story short he told me it was one of the better checkrides he has been on in a long time and i passed. There are stories floating around about him and he is like that on every ride. roamer has it if he stops yelling you failed.
My point is when that happened to me i became stressed. Could i still fly the airplane? yes. But idk if some one out of the training world for a long time could. Just maybe once the controller started yelling he froze. Maybe up until that point he was just trying to figure out if he could cross the runway to echo. Once the the controller and some terrible cfi start yelling at him he loses what situational awareness he had because he became flustered and froze all the more.
Idk if i make any valid points out of my own little world but i tried. i took the private at 41 hours and I'm at 63 now. SO IM VERY LOW TIME. so my thoughts might be void to you.

PS. I typed this fast and have know time to spell check or reread so i hope its not too bad
 
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tower: right delta ground point niner
pilot: Uh tower did you mean to say ground point 8 or do you want us to try them on point 9.
tower: Oh yea point 8 would work better, wouldnt it
beechsundowner
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« Reply #78 on: March 28, 2009, 09:42:35 PM »

Expedite or Immediate come to mind.

Immediate works wonders for the pilot.  Once from Westminister MD to Zanesville OH about 4 years ago, I was flying along and saw a huge thunderboomer in front of me.  6000 would have put me in the middle of the action but based on surface ASOS reports 4500 was the lowest ceiling. 

I was with Cleveland Center and about 30 miles out kept requesting 4000 as I didn't want to be in IMC.  Center would say standby for request.  10 miles out, I said Cleveland Center, 43 Lima needs 4000 immediately.  The chatter on the radio stopped and Center approved my request.

I was told the word immediate is just a buzz word short of declaring an emergency.
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NORDO
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« Reply #79 on: April 09, 2009, 09:14:14 PM »

Hello all, i was the instructor in question for the 'sweet mary and joseph come on'

Ksyr-pjr-I do not suffer from air rage, what i do suffer from is a lack of patience for incompetence.


Do you smack your students when they forget an item on the pre-start checklist?

Calm down, guy.  As someone who sees both sides of this on a daily basis, I can say your editorializing on freq. helped no one.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 09:17:23 PM by NORDO » Logged
cessna157
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« Reply #80 on: April 09, 2009, 09:29:53 PM »

Hello all, i was the instructor in question for the 'sweet mary and joseph come on'
Ksyr-pjr-I do not suffer from air rage, what i do suffer from is a lack of patience for incompetence.
We are flying planes, not driving golfcarts, which is what this guy, should have been doing instead.
Flying should not be considered recreational, those who consider it as such should be partaking in less daunting ventures.
P.S i could have blurted something much worst, and if i was truly causing confusion, i would have had to make a phonecall as well...so please Ksyr, leave your armchair piloting to the flight simulator.

If you are the person in question here, I'd like to pick your brain for a second.  What exactly did you think pouting over the radio would do?  How is that helping the situation? 

Why should flying not be considered recreational?  I assume by your statement that you've never been to an airshow?  Or an air race?  Or an aerobatics competition?  A vast majority of aviation is recreational.

But back to the original question?  What purpose does it serve to announce your displeasure of the situation over an already busy frequency?

If you were a flight instructor working for me at my flight school, you wouldn't be a flight instructor working at my flight school.
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CRJ7/CRJ9 F/O, Travel Agent
cessna157
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« Reply #81 on: April 09, 2009, 09:34:19 PM »

so please Ksyr, leave your armchair piloting to the flight simulator.

One of the great things about our civilization is being civil.  Things are discussed in the proper setting.  A busy frequency that has confusion would not be the place to discuss this.  But an internet forum, just like this, would be considered an appropriate place.

Granted lately there has been an increasing amount of censoring on these forums that worries me, there is the fact that this is a semi-public forum and people can post their opinions on matters.
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otto_pilot
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« Reply #82 on: April 15, 2009, 06:45:51 PM »

I just thought about this in a bit more detail. EVERYONE makes mistakes! Lets not condemn them for these mistakes........no one died that day. I had to write an NASA asrs for a flight into krdg 4 flights after i got my private. We all mess up. In this case we are all head hunting for 3 people who messed up. A cfi, an older pilot, and a tower controller....let them be. You know knock on wood i have never had to call a tower but i have wrote an asrs report. I have been questioned by a tower controller on the radio(caused me to write the asrs). It just worked out wrong on that day for these gentlemen.
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tower: right delta ground point niner
pilot: Uh tower did you mean to say ground point 8 or do you want us to try them on point 9.
tower: Oh yea point 8 would work better, wouldnt it
dylanh
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« Reply #83 on: April 17, 2009, 08:12:41 PM »

Well, I'll throw my .02 in here now. This Mooney pilot needs to either hang up his wings, or stay the heck out of controlled airspace.  WAY too many "Say again?'s" and non-answers.  It started with the controllers query if he was at 2,400' and kept going from there.  Sorry, but I don't feel the least bit of sympathy for the pilot.  He wasn't having radio problems, he was having competency problems.  H didnt make A mistake, he made MULTIPLE mistakes with the same controller and and aircraft on the same frequency. 

Having said that, go-arounds are great practice....especially when they are real.  The CFI should not have made the "Jesus Mary and Joseph...COME ON!!" comment at all.  Keep it off the air. Land, taxi over, shut down, THEN have a talk with him.  When it comes to dopes like this Mooney driver, I am not a patient man....but I would never give a verbal tongue-lashing over a controlled freq. 
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otto_pilot
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« Reply #84 on: April 20, 2009, 11:02:22 PM »

Lets be real everyone in this made more than one mistake........the Mooney pilot for missing the calls and stopping and sitting on the active. atc for yelling at the pilot and not calling for the gar sooner. If he calls gar sooner i would bet any amount of money that the Jesus comment never happens..... that said who knows who flew the gar.......... in this situation given the instructors mood i bet somewhere soon after the mic was off following Jesus, Mary, and Joseph comment he said.....my flight controls. that's just judging off his mood. So multiple mistakes were made by everyone. let them be
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tower: right delta ground point niner
pilot: Uh tower did you mean to say ground point 8 or do you want us to try them on point 9.
tower: Oh yea point 8 would work better, wouldnt it
ctroeger
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« Reply #85 on: April 21, 2009, 02:22:26 AM »

IMHO, I think the guy saying "Come on" and "They will give a pilots license to anyone these days" was out of line. I can't stand people that have to chime in with ridiculous comments. The Mooney pilot messed up, prob a new pilot who knows. The controller was busy enough dealing with that, no need for someone else to start running their mouth on the Air.
Just my 2 cents.
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inigo88
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« Reply #86 on: April 26, 2009, 12:04:44 AM »

To the gentleman who confessed to being the instructor in this clip:

Part of being a pilot is being able to deal with an unexpected (and sometimes even scary) scenario and improvise a solution.

The above was a perfect opportunity to evaluate your student's nerves under pressure, and you blew it.

What kind of example do you think you're setting by screaming "Jesus Christ", "Come on" and "They will give a pilot's license to anyone these days" over the radio because of something as insignificant as a go-around, in an aircraft with a perfectly functioning engine with a student who's paying you to be there? If you freak out so much about a maneuver as routine as a go around, how the hell can you ever expect that student to handle an emergency situation - where a split second life or death decision really must be made -  successfully?

Flying should not be considered recreational, those who consider it as such should be partaking in less daunting ventures.

I absolutely agree, and learning to fly at an uncontrolled field I've had enough run-ins with weekend warrior elderly pilots and rich M.D.s in Bonanzas to build an even greater contempt for these people than you most likely have - and there was nothing stopping you from writing down the tail number and tracking down his phone number, or finding him on the ramp and giving him a piece of your mind then (and this I have done - the tense "why did you just try and kill me?" conversation).

However, the same goes for flight instructing. Though people treat it like one, the CFI is not a right of passage for building hours. The habits you teach will stay with your students for the rest of their lives, and (if they're bad habits) may potentially contribute to their premature end. If you blocked an instruction from the local controller and a crash resulted because of your little rant, that day would have ended very differently. Even though you got lucky, your actions set an example to your student that trash talking on an active air traffic control frequency and potentially blocking the controller from issuing instructions is an acceptable behavior, and it is NOT!

If you can't handle the responsibility that was bestowed on you when you got your CFI to "be the bigger man," do us all a favor - take your own advice, and quit.
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iflyhi
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« Reply #87 on: April 26, 2009, 01:12:20 AM »

to  inigo88    can only say,,   "RIGHT ON "  ..
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