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Author Topic: UAL 56 vs ATC @ SFO last night  (Read 18051 times)
silagi
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« on: June 23, 2010, 11:46:51 AM »

Sounded like someone got up on the wrong side of the bed last night.

* KSFO-Twr-Jun-23-2010-0530Z-edit.mp3 (242.7 KB - downloaded 4790 times.)
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sykocus
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« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2010, 12:24:23 PM »

It sounds to me like he was asking to taxi off the runway so he could get rejoin the line waiting to take off. Did anyone else pick up on that? Maybe just me. Sometimes when I hear an asshole on frequency I read between the lines a little bit.
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silagi
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« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2010, 12:30:21 PM »

No what it is, 1R at SFO has a displaced threshold.  Due a major freeway running behind the end of the runway, departing planes are not supposed to use take off thrust until reaching the displaced threshold.  He was sitting at the end of the runway and wanted to use the full length.  The controller wanted him to taxi up to the power point and hold there.

http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/SFO/APD/AIRPORT+DIAGRAM/pdf
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davolijj
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« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2010, 01:43:58 PM »

It sounds to me like he was asking to taxi off the runway so he could get rejoin the line waiting to take off. Did anyone else pick up on that? Maybe just me. Sometimes when I hear an asshole on frequency I read between the lines a little bit.

Wow that's what I heard too.  I'm no tower flower but I gladly would have complied with his implied request....despite the "holier than thou" attitude.
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speedotann
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« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2010, 06:11:13 PM »

I like how the controller had a calm attitude! She could have been pretty harsh back at him. She did put him in his place though!! Good Job Lady

B
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Hollis
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« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2010, 08:59:05 PM »

Reminds me of an incident back in my USAF days. I was working with a young Corporal in the control tower who was handling traffic. An aircraft that had just landed was directed to taxi off the runway at a certain exit, but the pilot decided otherwise, for whatever reason. When asked why, he responded 'this is MY airplane and...blah, blah'. But without a second's hesitation, the Corporal came right back with 'That's fine Sir, but this is MY airport!'.
 
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sykocus
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« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2010, 07:38:47 AM »

you were in the AF when they had corporals?
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Hollis
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« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2010, 11:20:58 AM »

At the risk of telling my age, yes the USAF had Corporals, and the uniforms were khaki. A holdover from the US Army Air Corp. Blue uniforms and ranks of A/1C etc., came later.
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sykocus
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« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2010, 01:04:28 PM »

Yah that's what I figured...that WAS a while back. What was Gen. LeMay like? I kid, I kid.
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Dan CZQM
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« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2010, 02:04:02 PM »

"Again, I'll fly the the da, the airplane" at around the 1:05 mark

He almost let er blurb out on the air. haha
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Dan
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cessna157
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« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2010, 07:46:06 PM »

I like how the controller had a calm attitude! She could have been pretty harsh back at him. She did put him in his place though!! Good Job Lady

B


Gold medal for her not even being phased by this 'hole.  I'd like to take him onto the ramp and smack him in the face with a rotting fish.
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joeyb747
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« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2010, 08:28:48 PM »

I like how the controller had a calm attitude! She could have been pretty harsh back at him. She did put him in his place though!! Good Job Lady

B


Gold medal for her not even being phased by this 'hole.  I'd like to take him onto the ramp and smack him in the face with a rotting fish.

Agreed 100%!! At least he apologized in the end...

Nice catch silagi!
« Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 08:32:00 PM by joeyb747 » Logged

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graysono
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« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2010, 12:01:23 AM »

Listening to this a couple of times to me its a case of Pilot in Command.

Though someone perhaps could/should have told someone about starting full length to save the full explain "on-air".


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klkm
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« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2010, 10:56:15 AM »

Listening to this a couple of times to me its a case of Pilot in Command.

Though someone perhaps could/should have told someone about starting full length to save the full explain "on-air".




Sounds to me like just a misunderstanding between the pilot and the controller.  She couldn't see that the pilot was in position due to him not going up to the full power area.  He assumed she was getting on him because he didn't do that, instead of offering an explanation he went off on her about flying the damn plane himself. 

The controller remained calm, and simply explained her position and I have a feeling the pilot felt bad for blowing up on her when he realized she couldn't see him on the runway.  This happens, we all work crazy hours, have different stresses put on us, and sometimes one side or the other blows up, reference a lot of the  JFK recordings!  Usually, anytime I let out a little more aggression on the frequency then I intend it gets the point across.  But, it is always best to try to get everything explained prior to going off on a pilot, to make sure you are in the right to do so.  This pilot should have  asked for an explanation of why his takeoff clearance was canceled in the first place, and he probably would have calmed down.

 I bet next time he flies out he will either say "we are going to start takeoff roll from full length" or he will taxi to where apparently every other plane departs from. 
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svoynick
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« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2010, 10:33:25 PM »


Gold medal for her not even being phased by this 'hole.  I'd like to take him onto the ramp and smack him in the face with a rotting fish.

Totally agree.  This should be a training tape for how to keep an on-air situation from escalating emotionally.  Even in explaining her process, she didn't aggressively rub his face in it...
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demento21
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« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2010, 07:43:22 AM »

Its a good thing I am not a controller...

My response to this guy would have been:
"Very well UAL56, exit the runway via Mike and wait in the holding area. I will clear you to use the extra 50 feet of pavement once all this other pesky traffic dies down since you insist on operating in an area nobody can see you in."

Being a UA flight, it is very likely that some of the passengers heard this exchange on channel 9.
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Faramir
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« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2010, 01:42:21 PM »

Does somebody know if there is a transcript of this conversation? Most of it I can understand but the explanation from the controller I find very hard to understand. As English is not my native tongue I listened to it quite a few times but there is so much I just can not hear good enough... huh huh

From what I did comprehend I found the controllers posture very professional.
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chuckt101
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« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2010, 12:45:47 AM »

tower: cleared
pilot: ok
tower: cancel clearance. position & hold
pilot: ok. we're in position.
tower: can't see you, taxi up
pilot: (attitude). We're in position
tower: OK hold, traffic short final
pilot: (more attitude). We're in position damnit.
tower: I understand, i'm not saying you're not ready to go. Original clearance cancelled because I couldn't see you earlier. Now that we've agreed you're on the runway, you still need to hold for traffic.
pilot: whoops. I'm a jackass.
tower: cleared for take off.
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cessna157
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« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2010, 08:06:42 AM »

Haha, nice Cliffs notes version
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Fred_Garvin
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« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2010, 10:38:16 AM »

Well done Chuck
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Faramir
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« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2010, 02:40:44 PM »

Thank you very much, much better to follow! grin
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svoynick
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« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2010, 04:15:22 PM »

Nicely done, Chuck...   Almost short enough for a "Tweet", and yet you still retained the essential flavor!
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ARMEDnPISSED
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« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2010, 08:46:47 PM »

Nice find.
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TBolt
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« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2010, 12:48:19 PM »

this recording should be available in every flight school -- an example how NOT to talk to ATC when there is a disagreement.

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TBolt
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