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Author Topic: US Airways 1549 Audio.  (Read 35444 times)
cessna157
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« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2009, 01:55:30 PM »

please dont feed the troll on this one.
even though most his facts are wrong (there was not a simultaneous double engine shutdown), he is also excluding or choosing to ignore other facts to fit his conspiracy theory.

Agreed.  I thought trolls only existed in Usenet land, but apparently they stick their heads out in the sunshine, too.

I think I am done with this thread.  If you wish to discuss it more, we can start another thread or you can always PM or facebook me.
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Simcoe2
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« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2009, 04:11:30 PM »

please dont feed the troll on this one.
even though most his facts are wrong (there was not a simultaneous double engine shutdown), he is also excluding or choosing to ignore other facts to fit his conspiracy theory.

 

It's the trolls and their incredibly vanishing non-in-depth counter viewpoint/hypotheses.  Where's your copy of the Flight Data Recorder, the one permanently concealed from public access and scrutiny by U.S. federal law, just like CVRs?  Maybe you didn't know but all CVR and FDR tapes/transcripts released to the media are not the real McCoy.  They're copies made by a select secretive committee from, among others, the culpable manufacturer(s), and because copies, subject to inadvertent human error and/or deliberate error and/or omission. 1549s real CVR cockpit discussions have been substantially edited and whole tracts omitted from release and the transcript copy that was released contains minor errors and the audio massive omissions.     

Fortunately, these are unnecessary.  Waterfowl through turbofans do not go ‘BOOM’.  The 1549 #1 engine did at 2800’.  Three days before over Newark the same aircraft and same engines also went boom, only less severe and survivable.  That crew was able to restart and continue on.  Anybody notice any 'trolling' so far?  These booms occur when there’s no room for additional non-bypassed inrushing air in the business section of the turbofan engine. The air rushes in, can’t go anywhere since hits a wall of existing highly pressurized air and gets forcibly ejected in the direction it came through more inrushing air, whichever knots airspeed the plane's traveling, sometimes destroying static and variable stator vanes along the path.   

A 10lb bird snaps off a single fan blade that crashes into and snaps off other fan blades, etc, in a high speed progressive demolition. 

A HPC surge causes a massive boom.  A bird strike causes repetitive muffled sledgehammer on steel I-beam effect when sheared fan blades hammer into other blades.  A big difference. 

Had the passengers and attendants reported a repetitive THUNK-THUNK-THUNK-THUNK, that would be a bird strike.  They reported a one time BOOM, and that’s highly compressed air exploding forward out of the intake due to HPC design flaws. 

 


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joeyb747
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« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2009, 09:05:49 PM »

The "booms" you hear in those situations are technically called "Compressor Stalls", but yes, a bird going into an engine does not make a "Boom". It was documented in US Airways MX records that the engine did in fact have a compressor stall in the days prior to the accident. There is a big differance between a "bang", a "thud", a "boom", and a "bam". Granted, it may have sounded differant inside the plane, but I dont think the engines went "boom" when they incountered the birds.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2009, 08:41:43 PM by joeyb747 » Logged

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« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2009, 09:55:27 PM »

I'm thinking the whole thing was faked on a soundstage, and all the "passengers" are paid actors.  If you look at the photos you can clearly see the shadows are all wrong.  And if you look really closely you can see "Hasegawa" printed on the side of the airplane.


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cessna157
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« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2009, 12:34:24 AM »

No no no, Slumcoe is partly correct:  There were no birds.  It wasn't a bird ingestion at all.

It was a collision with a UFO.  The blood and guts in the engines were from the Martians that came to colonize our planet.  The government and NTSB is covering it up to prevent worldwide panic.  The crew are heroes.  They saved the planet.  Will Smith and Randy Quaid, eat your hearts out!
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« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2009, 01:22:19 PM »



Frank Holbert
http://160knots.com
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Frank Holbert
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« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2009, 05:44:44 PM »

With all due respect, gentlemen, I think fholbert summarized the facts of this incident best with his last post...haha
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iskyfly
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« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2009, 08:31:28 AM »

NTSB Advisory
National Transportation Safety Board
Washington, DC 20594
February 12, 2009

FOURTH UPDATE ON INVESTIGATION INTO DITCHING OF US AIRWAYS JETLINER INTO HUDSON RIVER


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following is an update on the National Transportation Safety Board's investigation of US Airways flight 1549, which ditched into the Hudson River on January 15, 2009. The bird remains found in both engines of US Airways flight 1549 have been identified by the Smithsonian Institution's Feather Identification Laboratory as Canada Goose (Branta canadensis).
The lab made the identification for the NTSB through DNA analysis as well as through morphological comparisons in which feather fragments were compared with Canada Goose specimens in the museum's collections; the microscopic feather samples were compared with reference microslide collections.

A total of 25 samples of bird remains have been examined as of today. Additional analysis will be conducted on samples received from the NTSB to attempt to determine if the Canada Geese were resident or migratory. While no determination has been made about how many birds the aircraft struck or how many were ingested into the engines, an adult Canada Goose typically ranges in size from 5.8 to 10.7 pounds, however larger individual resident birds can exceed published records.

The accident aircraft was powered by two CFM56-5B/P turbofan engines.  The bird ingestion standard in effect when this engine type was certified in 1996 included the requirement that the engine must withstand the ingestion of a four-pound bird without catching fire, without releasing hazardous fragments through the engine case, without generating loads high enough to potentially compromise aircraft structural components, or without losing the capability of being shut down. The certification standard does not require that the engine be able to continue to generate thrust after ingesting a bird four pounds or larger.

NTSB investigators worked closely with wildlife biologists from the United States Department of Agriculture, both at the scene of the accident in New York City and during the engine teardowns at the manufacturer's facility in Cincinnati, to extract all of the organic material that was identified today.

###

NTSB Media Contact: Peter Knudson
(202) 314-6100
peter.knudson@ntsb.gov

 
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Simcoe2
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« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2009, 01:38:31 PM »

NTSB Advisory
National Transportation Safety Board
Washington, DC 20594
February 12, 2009

FOURTH UPDATE ON INVESTIGATION INTO DITCHING OF US AIRWAYS JETLINER INTO HUDSON RIVER


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following is an update on the National Transportation Safety Board's investigation of US Airways flight 1549, which ditched into the Hudson River on January 15, 2009. The bird remains found in both engines of US Airways flight 1549 have been identified by the Smithsonian Institution's Feather Identification Laboratory as Canada Goose (Branta canadensis).
The lab made the identification for the NTSB through DNA analysis as well as through morphological comparisons in which feather fragments were compared with Canada Goose specimens in the museum's collections; the microscopic feather samples were compared with reference microslide collections.

A total of 25 samples of bird remains have been examined as of today. Additional analysis will be conducted on samples received from the NTSB to attempt to determine if the Canada Geese were resident or migratory. While no determination has been made about how many birds the aircraft struck or how many were ingested into the engines, an adult Canada Goose typically ranges in size from 5.8 to 10.7 pounds, however larger individual resident birds can exceed published records.

The accident aircraft was powered by two CFM56-5B/P turbofan engines.  The bird ingestion standard in effect when this engine type was certified in 1996 included the requirement that the engine must withstand the ingestion of a four-pound bird without catching fire, without releasing hazardous fragments through the engine case, without generating loads high enough to potentially compromise aircraft structural components, or without losing the capability of being shut down. The certification standard does not require that the engine be able to continue to generate thrust after ingesting a bird four pounds or larger.

NTSB investigators worked closely with wildlife biologists from the United States Department of Agriculture, both at the scene of the accident in New York City and during the engine teardowns at the manufacturer's facility in Cincinnati, to extract all of the organic material that was identified today.

###

NTSB Media Contact: Peter Knudson
(202) 314-6100
peter.knudson@ntsb.gov

 




There were 18 turbofan aircraft hull losses from 40,286 reported bird strikes in the US between 1990-2006, says R.A. Dolbeer basing on USA National Wildlife Strike Database: (http://www.davvl.de/Volu%20englisch/2007/Dolbeer.pdf)

That’s 1 hull per 2238 bird strike, and vast majority small twin engine jets.  There were at least 120 million US commercial airline departures, 1990-2006.  Please, check and correct my facts as necesary. 

94% of these strikes, says Dolbeer, occurred on takeoff roll or "wheels-off" <100ft above aerodrome elevation.  6% occurred on departure (>100ft) or short final or en route.

There were approx. 10 million commercial airline departures in the US in 2006 (just under that in 2008), on back to about 6 million in 1990.  Or 1 hull loss per 6.7 million average departures from bird strike.     

Cactus 1549 is purported to have collided head-on with a flock of waterfowl over the Bronx in clear skies.  The only jet airliners on international record to collide head-on with a flock of waterfowl in ‘formation’ (not spooked into scattered flight during takeoff roll, wheels up or short final) took the flock by surprise at high speed out of a cloud bank. 

In 1995, on approach into JFK, a Polar Air Cargo 747 broke out of the clouds at 7500’ straight into a flock of snow geese that had no time to evade.  The collision caused significant airframe damage and knocked out ‘one’ engine. The crew reported a flurry of “sandbag”-like thuds.  (www.birdstrike.org)

Turbofans, even though regulations say 4lb, are built to withstand one-off 8lb bird ingestion. It takes two or more 8lb birds to knock out an engine. 

Departure (wheels up and initial climbout) is where most turbofan bird ingestions occur due to TO-power N1 in bird central congregation habitat. The odds of a turbofan-powered jet striking a bird in all stages of flight are 3000:1, and after beating these odds 33:1 will result in “substantial engine damage” and 44:1 that this damage will occur above 100ft AAE (Dolbeer).  Tall odds. 

Odd that have yet to factor in clear sky conditions, flight crew experience, skill and vigilence, medium full-time staffed radar, PIREP, passengers statements, and the remarkable little aviators themselves, the waterfowl.     

With Cactus 1549 the only twin engine commercial airliner departure to be downed by a purported flock out of all US departures between Feb. 2008 and Jan.2009 is a 1 in 10 million occurence.

The odds of hitting acutely vigilant waterfowl on full-time high alert for predators over the Bronx in clear skies are even taller.

Did I mention that the airline industry loses money on the whole, needs massive public subsidy to be sustained, engages in vicious price wars and exposure of potentially lethal component defects tantamount to catastrophic?

The odds of a predator high alert flock failing to collectively detect and evade a huge strange looking threatening bird bearing down on them from 4nm in clear sky are next to none.  As is no other airframe damage by 10lb birds at 180kts make.  Same for two birds per engine just happening to be side by side or line astern perfectly lined up in the path of each 1549 turbofan intake.  The combined odds of a first officer hitting an entire flock in clear skies from 4nm and the captain letting it happen, unthinkable.  The odds of TRACON radar plus prior departing crews not detecting these very birds in clear skies, just incredible. 

The odds of 149 passengers reporting solitary ‘loud BANG!’ against one saying ‘thud’, self-explanatory.  The odds of every passenger this very aircraft three before all reporting a loud bang then lights out, also self-explanatory. The odds of any passenger seeing any blurry object fly past their window in 1st class taking to co-passenger to their immediate right, forget it.  The odds of identifying this blur, even if did detect, impossible.  Only confirmation by labs like the Smithsonian can correctly identify, and I seem to recollect that it takes a whole lot longer than this unbelieveably fast test result to identity. The odds of smelling bird in the cabin, contrary to some passengers, impossible. 

Ingested bird is shredded and ejected in a blink. Whatever sidewall blood spatter remains is air-dried at the engine’s forward velocity, in this case, about 180kt.  Bleed air is drawn 'before' the fuel stage.  Bird remains travel so fast through the super hot high compressor air that don’t have time to combust. The only ‘engine-related’ contaminants in the cabin occur from faulty valve leak of lubricating oil, etc, requiring a steady supply over minutes, maybe hours mixed and diluted with ambient air from the ram air inlets to the parts per million point of humanly undetectable.  And why passengers get headaches, dry eyes without ever knowing why.  A bird goes through too fast.   

Even if I'm totally incorrect and 1549 really did it birds.  This crew bullseyed a visible and avoidable airborne danger,  therefore massive crew negligence at bare minimum.  Along with TRACON negligence not to identify an airborne threat in clear skies; no prior crew off 04 bird PIREP in clear skies; acutely vigilant birds to make no effort of avoidance with 4nm to do so; no compressor surge and stall by the same engines three days before over Newark, and a spotless CFM 56-5B operational history with no operator complaints.   

Just out of curiosity. How did the Brantus canadensis feather evidence stick around after an approx. 150kt inrush of Hudson River water, powerful enough to rip the #2 off, flushed through them on touchdown and yet left no dried blood spatter?   



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MathFox
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« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2009, 02:13:28 PM »

Simone2, interesting theory... but I prefer to wait for the NTSB report with all the gory details. They have experts that will (did?) take apart the engines and will report on what damage the geese did to each stage of the jet. (And while the compressor can cook fan-sliced goose, I prefer goose done by a real cook.)

A few remarks on your story: A certified jet engine may stop all power production when a suicidal quarter-pound swallow is ingested. The certification only states that it isn't allowed to be a danger to passengers and plane when it ingests big birds. I won't comment on your use of statistics... just say "shit happens, despite all effort to avoid it in flight"

About the Canadian Geese: Fine the birds for not filing a flight plan, not establishing radio contact with ATC and not operating any transponders.
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delta092b
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« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2009, 04:01:53 PM »

Regarding what a bird ingestion sounds like from inside a plane. Here is a good example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=CA&hl=en&v=AzfEx_zBmek&NR=1

Sounds like a bang/boom to me and I don't hear many unusual sounds after the ingestion even with the engine at idle during the RTO.

Perhaps this was another cover-up Smiley
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cessna157
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« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2009, 04:41:46 PM »

Check out this Martian strike



Now you tell me how they were supposed to avoid this.  Any they were only doing 75ish knots
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« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2009, 05:00:32 PM »

I think someone should get William of Ockham a LiveATC account and let him weigh in on this.

(Google it.  You'll get it)
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atcman23
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« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2009, 07:29:07 PM »

About the Canadian Geese: Fine the birds for not filing a flight plan, not establishing radio contact with ATC and not operating any transponders.

LOL good one.  Next someone will actually pass a law requiring birds to wear transponders.  Mode C intruders everywhere!!
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Mark Spencer
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« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2009, 08:36:19 PM »

Regarding what a bird ingestion sounds like from inside a plane. Here is a good example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=CA&hl=en&v=AzfEx_zBmek&NR=1

Sounds like a bang/boom to me and I don't hear many unusual sounds after the ingestion even with the engine at idle during the RTO.

Perhaps this was another cover-up Smiley

Listen to it again, it's three quick thuds.  'Three' rapid impacts.  BAP-BAP-BAP.  One bird can't do that.  Not even two. Cool vid.  The sound is a fuselage strike right on the plane's noggin by three birds all seen, or at least one, by the flight crew and why they aborted in such a hurry. (Or, dare I say, tire blowout due to frequency) They saw(heard) the situation unfold and aborted.  The left engine, progessively spooling up to takeoff N1 just before the thuds, would be just too loud to emit any acoustic indication of bird (tire explosion) ingestion and the wing too far back to resonate through the wing to the cabin, then up to the cockpit.  The video camera operator/passenger was situated well forward of the left wing/engine, and whatever birds (may have) stuck that departing aircraft never came into the camera's range.  Birds all right, the rubber kind, three of them, all bouncing off the bogie, with nothing going through any engine.  The pilots, being good pilots, immediately aborted, delivered a howler,  and returned to the gate for inspection.  Had it been an engine ingestion the crew would likely know.  All they're would be wings and claws.  The crew aborted so fast at about 120kt, below V1, that they had to have seen the bird or birds before any, if could, could've even passed through any engine.  But probably not what happened.  The sound is more indicative of high speed revolution failure of those circular rubber things.   
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