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Author Topic: We don't need any Air Traffic Controllers!  (Read 18568 times)
Greg01
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« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2008, 09:47:25 PM »

I think "Negative Stage III" or something like "Negative TRSA service" gets the point across.

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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2008, 10:10:54 PM »

What do you say if you don't want to participate? Is it still "Negative Stage 3".

My understanding is that you just don't bother to call the approach facility controlling the TRSA.   As long as you don't enter the class D airspace surrounding the towered facility itself you are good to go. 

I am more or less surrounded by TRSAs here in central NY.  There is one to the east, one to the southwest, and another to the south.    There have been a limited number of times I have skirted their airspaces during scenic flights and didn't want or need to contact them for services.

Never heard of phrase "Negative Stage 3," either in my private pilot training (circa '88-92 and again in 2002) or on the TRSA frequencies.  When do you recall this last being actively used and how was it used?

EDIT:  Duh, of course - if you are departing the class D airport within the TRSA you can decline the services, too.  I was solely thinking passing through the airspace, not departing from within.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2008, 10:13:08 PM by KSYR-pjr » Logged

Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
fholbert
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« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2008, 12:22:35 AM »

My understanding is that you just don't bother to call the approach facility controlling the TRSA.   As long as you don't enter the class D airspace surrounding the towered facility itself you are good to go. 

I am more or less surrounded by TRSAs here in central NY.  There is one to the east, one to the southwest, and another to the south.    There have been a limited number of times I have skirted their airspaces during scenic flights and didn't want or need to contact them for services.

Never heard of phrase "Negative Stage 3," either in my private pilot training (circa '88-92 and again in 2002) or on the TRSA frequencies.  When do you recall this last being actively used and how was it used?

I'm really jerking your chain. My first 2 ATC assignments were Stage 3 TRSA approach controls so I have been around them.

"Negative Stage 3" used to be the correct call when there was Stage 1, 2 and 3 TRSAs. If you are landing at a airport served by a TRSA you would still have to talk to approach control since they set the sequence.
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Frank Holbert
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2008, 09:27:23 AM »

I'm really jerking your chain. My first 2 ATC assignments were Stage 3 TRSA approach controls so I have been around them.

Consider chain jerked. Smiley  I didn't realize you were a controller, too.   
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
snipper_cr
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« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2008, 11:23:36 AM »

I am trying to look at the perspective... and it looks like the Piper descended into the Cessna.  If that is the case, this could be another scary example of the "High wing/low wing" problems where both are blocked because of wing location. Yikes.
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The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
fholbert
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« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2008, 08:25:09 AM »

I am trying to look at the perspective... and it looks like the Piper descended into the Cessna.  If that is the case, this could be another scary example of the "High wing/low wing" problems where both are blocked because of wing location. Yikes.

I think it's clear that the Piper's low wing played no part in this accident. The nose blocked his view.
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Frank Holbert
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moto400ex
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« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2008, 07:47:17 PM »

I am trying to look at the perspective... and it looks like the Piper descended into the Cessna.  If that is the case, this could be another scary example of the "High wing/low wing" problems where both are blocked because of wing location. Yikes.

I think it's clear that the Piper's low wing played no part in this accident. The nose blocked his view.

Any one heard anything about that mid-air over corona? 
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Amante de Aviones
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« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2008, 08:20:14 PM »

Yea very sad incident 5 people died.  I just wonder how it could have happened
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Hollis
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« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2008, 09:09:04 PM »

Google 'corona midair collision' for info
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fholbert
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« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2008, 12:10:27 AM »

Any one heard anything about that mid-air over corona? 

Yea, that's where I'm based. Met the C-150 pilot the weekend before the accident. He and his pax were thrown out of the plane on impact.
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Frank Holbert
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inigo88
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« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2008, 05:11:34 PM »

You guys are great!!! Cheesy

This accident was at "Schellville" Sonoma Valley Airport (0Q3), and happened on new years day, during a small fly-in there. I was there, but got there later in the day so I missed the incident, but saw the aftermath on N8037W and the poor owner on the cellphone with the FAA/NTSB. There were a lot of cases of impromptu amateur aerobatics going on in the vicinity of airport, as well as a couple high speed low approaches (I missed a P-51 but caught a descent flyby by a Nanchang CJ-6 on camera). In other words, unofficial fly-in at an uncontrolled airport = An environment conducive to attracting stupid pilots and witnessing stupid things.

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Runway 7 was the active runway (more commonly runway 25 is, forcing departures to back taxi the full length to the end). Most arrivals were just turning off and taxiing back on the grass, or making a 180 on the pavement and back taxiing to the ramp.

Run-ups were taking place in the ramp area immediately north and west of the grass area containing the segmented circle and wind indicator (this grass area is bordered to the north and south by two taxiways with hold short lines to the restricted runway 17-35 immediately east... the southern taxiway leading through the restricted runway and directly to the runway 7 threshold). INTELLIGENT pilots were also using the runup area of the ramp to perform 360 degree clearing turns, to observe the pattern and any traffic on final. Then, they would taxi via the southern taxiway or the northern taxiway and rwy 17-35 to the runway 7 threshold before starting their takeoff roll.

I can't account for the following firsthand, but heard it from a friend who's a flight instructor and former regional airline pilot so I trust his account.

The warrior flew the published right traffic pattern to runway 7 and announced his position when appropriate on the CTAF frequency 122.9 Mhz. On final, since the runway threshold is displaced (though not by any official markings) eastward along the taxiway to the other side of runway 17-35 from the ramp, the ramp drops out of view below the nose on final but the threshold itself always remains in view almost the whole time.

Apparently, at the precise moment while the warrior was on a fairly short final (short enough to reasonably expect the ramp area to no longer be in view), the Glastair pilot decided to...

a.) NOT CLEAR THE AREA FOR TRAFFIC -and-
b.) START HIS TAKEOFF ROLL FROM THE RAMP WEST OF THE NORTH-SOUTH RWY 17-35.

So many things are wrong with both those decisions I won't even start... but the Glastair then proceeded to rapidly accelerate down the taxiway towards the runway threshold BEHIND the warrior, caught up to his speed PRIOR to the runway threshold and passed him whilst rotating the airplane at exactly the right height for the right trailing edge of the warrior's wing to contact the vertical stabilizer of the Glastair as he rotated. You can just make out the yellow arrows on the runway that mark the runway 7 threshold in the last few photos (compare with the google map link), which agrees with my friend's account that the Glastair rotated PRIOR to the beginning of the runway!!! Thanks to the photos, I can also see the warrior was somewhat low on final, but it clearly wasn't a huge contributing factor to the accident.

I believe following the collision the Warrior executed a go around and returned to land with no flaps. I am certain however that the Glastair made no attempt to return to land, and continued to Napa (KAPC) despite the fact that the top of the rudder was hanging off the vertical stabilizer of his airplane. This was either an admission of guilt and attempt at fleeing the scene of the crime, or a show of complete incompetence in not recognizing the fact that he was just involved in a mid-air. In either case, it reflects extremely badly on the individual flying the Glastair.

To sum it up NTSB style:

The accident was caused by Glastair pilot's lack of performing adequate clearing turns or monitoring the CTAF, and decision to begin his takeoff roll from a ramp area while a Piper PA-28 was on short final - causing the Glastair to reach rotation speed prior to the beginning of the runway and touchdown zone of the other aircraft. Contributing factors to the collision were the location of each aircraft's blind spots, and the configuration of the airport creating an inability for traffic on short final to keep the ramp area in sight.

I've flown into Schellville myself several times, and ALMOST did that day, and I'm very thankful I didn't. The circumstances of this incident make my stomach turn...

Just my $.02. Wink

Inigo
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2008, 05:17:52 PM »

Apparently, at the precise moment while the warrior was on a fairly short final (short enough to reasonably expect the ramp area to no longer be in view), the Glastair pilot decided to...

a.) NOT CLEAR THE AREA FOR TRAFFIC -and-
b.) START HIS TAKEOFF ROLL FROM THE RAMP WEST OF THE NORTH-SOUTH RWY 17-35.

So, if this is indeed true this may explain in more ways than one why the Glastair pilot continued his journey to another airport, rather than coming back around to land.  I thought it strange that the pilot opted to fly to another airport with so much damage to the control surface.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
inigo88
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« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2008, 05:46:17 PM »

Indeed, here are a couple of my own photos from that day. Two of the damaged PA-28, one of the CJ-6 low approach I was talking about (to show you the parking area... and it's just cool), and I just whipped up this panorama of the ramp area adjacent to the north-south runway and runway 7. The photo is looking southeast, and you can see an airplane in position on the runway 7 threshold for departure, and the segmented circle between the two taxiways.



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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2008, 06:01:36 PM »

Indeed, here are a couple of my own photos from that day.

Nice photos.  I especially like the panorama.

In looking at the Google Maps link, I now see exactly what you are describing:



The area I circled is, at least in my experience, a very...um... unique airport configuration that seems to be begging for more of these types of accidents.  Like the very tragic ComAir runway overrun accident at the Lexington, Kentucky, airport last year, it seems that this airport layout significantly increases the chances of a pilot mistake. 

Have there been others like this?  I would imagine there are more close calls here than other, more traditionally designed airports.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
aviator_06
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« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2008, 08:12:02 PM »

Good thing they at least used the CTAF freq.
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