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| | |-+  Weird JFK Emergency Yesterday around 5:10 PM "give me 31R or I'll declare"
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Author Topic: Weird JFK Emergency Yesterday around 5:10 PM "give me 31R or I'll declare"  (Read 58239 times)
jpwilde
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« on: May 05, 2010, 10:33:15 AM »

Hi, first post, I found this so weird I just had to ask about it.

American 2 heavy is on visual for rwy 22 L, calls in that the localizer is not functioning, tower resets it for him, he calls in that he can't take 22 L, and that if he doesn't get 31 R he's going to declare emergency.

The tower controller says he'll pass it along, and IMMEDIATELY after he says that American 2 heavy declares an emergency, calls breaking off approach and circiling for 31R.  Tower controller tries to issue a turn, but American 2 heavy refuses it and says "I have an emergency, clear the area". (As is his right, I guess.)

By the time it's time for taxi instructions, you can tell theres no love lost between the flight crew and the controller.

I cut this clip down for dead space between transmissions, and cut out one irrelevant exchange with another plane on the ground. I left in tower dealing with clearing the runway and approach after the emergency is called.  Also, the exchange where American 2 heavy says that he needs 31R or he's declaring an emergency, tower says he'll pass it along, and American 2 heavy actually declares an emergency is all unedited.  The three transmissions really were within seconds of one and other. There would have been nothing to cut for time if I'd wanted to.

If anybody has any idea what the subtext to all this is, I'd be very interested.  Is it just that 22 L is too short?  In which case why not get resequenced without the emergency?
« Last Edit: May 05, 2010, 10:36:04 AM by jpwilde » Logged
Cap747
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« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2010, 11:17:44 AM »

Is this about the same event as someone describes at the listeners forum???

http://www.liveatc.net/forums/listener-forum/anyone-listening-to-jfk-feed-635-p-m/

« Last Edit: May 08, 2010, 07:40:24 PM by Cap747 » Logged
davolijj
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« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2010, 11:21:16 AM »

It definitely sounds like there's something missing in that clip.  It sounds like it's kind of out of context.  Was there earlier discussion missing about needing priority or something? 
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JD
jpwilde
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« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2010, 11:28:55 AM »

Nothing on tower that I heard.  I was sitting in a parking lot waiting for my wife to get out of work listening to tower for about 45 minutes before it all went down.  I think the first transmission in the clip is his check-in.

I should go back and check approach.  If I have time later today I will.  Unless someone else beats me to it.  First I heard him was at about 2108Z.
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sykocus
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« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2010, 11:37:41 AM »

I don't know much about JFK ops, but 22L looks like it's on the short side, but 31R is only 1600ft longer. Also it sounds like there was a strong cross wind for 22, but that's where everyone else was going. However if those were the reason's AAL2 could take 22 he should have said something before accepting a visual approach clearance from approach.

What was the nature of emergency that required him to land right away? The only thing I could think of was for fuel. We don't have any record of what he said to approach, but he if he went from fine on the VA to emergence fuel just like that then that was bad planning and horrible communication. Whatever the reason for the emergency AAL2 wasn't doing a good job communicating. Given the sequence of events it sounds like he declared an emergency because the LOC was ots. I know pilots like to have the LOC as a backup when doing a VA, but because it's out is reason to declare alone. So if he had to declare an emergency I don't think some sort of explanation was unreasonable. Either that or we missed a transmission or set of transmissions perhaps with another facility.

The controller was dealing with a lot. It sounds like the ILS went down. The controller had to send a US airways around that was behind AAL2. It also sounds like the controller tried to stop AAL2246 but he stopped past the hold short line and was a problem for AAL2 so the controller had to taxi him clear.
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Yesterday I couldn't spell air traffic controller. Today I R one.
jpwilde
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« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2010, 11:46:04 AM »

I just re-listened; I did miss the check-in in the clip.  He checks in on the ILS (!) for 22L.  Tower tells him he's number 2 and clears him to land.  Other than that, nothing special.
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Cap747
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« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2010, 12:17:31 PM »

Nothing on tower that I heard.  I was sitting in a parking lot waiting for my wife to get out of work listening to tower for about 45 minutes before it all went down.  I think the first transmission in the clip is his check-in.

I should go back and check approach.  If I have time later today I will.  Unless someone else beats me to it.  First I heard him was at about 2108Z.

At the approach frequency I heard him diverting weather twice, but nothing unusual... He was 8 miles out and established on the localizer then normally handed over to tower...
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aevins
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« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2010, 12:18:07 PM »

Although weird and JFK normally go hand in hand, this is an odd clip. Looks like they were in the arrival configuration, landing 22L/R and departing 31R, and running SWAP. Aircraft in question looks like it was spun a few times south of LENDY, but no evidence of a missed approach.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAL2/history/20100504/1615Z/KLAX/KJFK
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N400PW
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« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2010, 12:34:50 PM »

Sounds right he probably just took off headed for LAX had to turn back and full of fuel needed a runway suitable for a heavy 67 200 I bet.  The pilot did the right thing seems like JFK controllers need the whole runaround of the problem before they make an executive decision.
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iskyfly
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« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2010, 12:40:55 PM »

Sounds right he probably just took off headed for LAX had to turn back and full of fuel needed a runway suitable for a heavy 67 200 I bet. 
I'll take you up on that bet. $100?
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Anthony Santanastaso
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« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2010, 12:45:22 PM »

I think it has something to do with the pilots calculating the maximum demonstrated crosswind component of the aircraft and what the airline deamed allowable in their flight manual. The wind was reported to be 320 at 23, gusts 35. Landing on runway 22L would create a quartering tailwind with a crosswind component of between 29-34 kts (factoring the highest wind speed with the gusts). Supposing the plane was a 767-200, from one source I quickly referenced, the approximate maximum demonstrated crosswind component on a runway either wet or dry is 40kts. True the actual conditions were probably less than 40kts, perhaps their flight manual said otherwise? Or, the pilots doing the math rather quickly in their heads decided it was too close for comfort?

I'm sure that the frustration of the new runway configuration with 31L/13R closed played into the pilot's decision.

Just my two cents.
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Anthony Santanastaso
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Cap747
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« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2010, 12:46:44 PM »

Sounds right he probably just took off headed for LAX had to turn back and full of fuel needed a runway suitable for a heavy 67 200 I bet.  
I'll take you up on that bet. $100?

Me tooooo  afro

A flight that originated in KLAX and after 4 hours and 48 minutes landed at KJFK is not a departing airplane...
« Last Edit: May 11, 2010, 12:29:49 PM by Cap747 » Logged
iskyfly
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« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2010, 12:49:24 PM »

I think it has something to do with the pilots calculating the maximum demonstrated crosswind component of the aircraft and what the airline deamed allowable in their flight manual.
It was fuel related.
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wxman
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« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2010, 12:54:07 PM »

My first post - I have never heard anything like this ever - I think the controller was due a major explanation - of the just what #!!#$%$^ was going down. Almost sounded like it was political or something because he made a few loops on his decent/approach he had a case of the ass?
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Delta Echo
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« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2010, 01:23:33 PM »

I just re-listened; I did miss the check-in in the clip.  He checks in on the ILS (!) for 22L.  Tower tells him he's number 2 and clears him to land.  Other than that, nothing special.

He checked in on the Visual!!!  The first words on the recording is "... visual for 22L"
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