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| | |-+  Weird JFK Emergency Yesterday around 5:10 PM "give me 31R or I'll declare"
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Author Topic: Weird JFK Emergency Yesterday around 5:10 PM "give me 31R or I'll declare"  (Read 63349 times)
jpwilde
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« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2010, 01:28:42 PM »

For the sake of completeness, here's the clip reedited with his initial check-in prepended.  Like I said, nothing too special, but he does check in on the ILS.  Sorry I cut it off in the first clip--brain fart.

I don't think it changes things much.  It still sounds like it's visual conditions.
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VampyreGTX
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« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2010, 02:56:56 PM »

Not sure on this one, I truly hope it was an emergency and not a case of ego's.  It resulted in the disruption of other flights, wasted fuel on the planes they forces to go around, etc. 

I highly doubt it was a fuel emergency as they would have declared low fuel which would give them priority and would have ZERO effect on what runway they COULD land at.  They actually burned MORE fuel breaking off the approach and circling to land the other runway.  If the pilot couldn't land on the runway because of crosswind or tailwind component, declaring an emergency is NOT the correct thing to do.  He should have stated 'unable' and requested a change with an explanation as to why he was unable.  I guarantee there will be a thorough investigation of this since the pilot declared an emergency. 
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davalos08
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« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2010, 03:13:43 PM »

Really weird, you don't declare emergency for wind, you just request a better RWY and explain the reasons. Fuel is debatable too, VampyreGTX is right, if the were low on fuel, I think the best course of action would have been to land on the runway you are established at, they surely spent a little more pounds on the circling. In any case is the PIC the ultimate authority of the operation of the aircraft, and ATC has to adjust to that. Lets wait for the investigation
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iskyfly
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« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2010, 03:18:40 PM »

Fuel is debatable?

Think...... Avianca
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Planemusic
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« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2010, 03:22:55 PM »

I just checked the Airport Monitor for JFK (http://www4.passur.com/jfk.html) for 5 PM on May 4.
In replay mode, it shows at least 4 aircraft lined up for 31R.   It appears the tower was in the process of changing
to runway 22L.   AAL2 was the first in line with aircraft starting to lineup behind him.   The monitor shows AAL descended
to 600 ft and broke off the approach just about over the belt parkway.  He then turned to a heading of 180.
You can then see the following aircraft climbing on the runway heading (220).   
Just after crossing the centerline of RW 32R,  AAL2 entered a sharp left 220 degree turn while climbing to 1300ft to line up with 32R.
I too am baffled as to why an emergency was declared.   If the wind was an issue he should have said so. 

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VampyreGTX
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« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2010, 03:24:45 PM »

Yes, even though the PIC is the ultimate authority in the operation of the aircraft, the handling of this emergency by the pilot is definitely NOT professional, IMHO.  The pilot declared an emergency, which he has a right to do if there truly was an emergency.  Per the FAA and review of the FAR's and AIM, the pilot should then wait for an amendend clearance from ATC unless the emergency requires immediate and continued deviation from the FAR's.  It doesn't sound like it was a control issue (entered a turn to do a circle to land at another runway), engine issue (as it doesn't sound like any issues in doing a circle to land which would have required multiple power adjustments), etc.  The controller acknowledged the emergency and altered the clearance, instructing the pilot to fly runway heading so that he could most likely get the pilot down with minimal disruption to other airport operations.  Instead, he turned on his own, causing ATC to scramble to get other planes out of the way, sending other pilots scrambling to do go-arounds and new approaches, etc.  In my opinion, as a pilot myself, the pilot of AA0002 in this case was out of line.  If the emergency was a true emergency, I'm SURE this would be all over the news by now.

When an emergency is declared in the terminal area, the tower is supposed to log the details, tapes, etc. and report it to the FSDO.  This doesn't always happen, but I can guarantee this incident will definitely be reported by the tower to the FSDO based solely on the tone and animosity that was developing between the controller and the pilot.  I wonder if we'll ever get the details.  
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Cap747
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« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2010, 03:39:58 PM »

Also after reviewing the radar images, they just followed the JBU


They must have seen something like this...
« Last Edit: May 05, 2010, 03:47:27 PM by Cap747 » Logged
VampyreGTX
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« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2010, 03:55:20 PM »

Okay, found AA2 heavy on KJFK Approach (Final) frequency.  No problems or emergency concerns while on Approach.  I've attached the file.  I'll see if I can find the comm's from the other approach frequency's leading to to KJFK Final. 

So far, no mention of low fuel, or any other kind of emergency up until the little catfight on Tower.
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jpwilde
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« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2010, 04:07:26 PM »

Adding to the weirdness, I think I hear both pilots talking on the radio for AA2 at the same time at one point.  Right after tower gives them heading 180, it sounds like person B comes on and says something-- "you don't under[stand]..." maybe, and person A steps on him and forcefully declares that they're landing now.  (It starts at about 1:34 in the second, amended clip above.)

I think I hear fear in person B's voice.  Whether it's the fear of a first officer who's career is flashing before his eyes after his captain gets in a fight with ATC... or something else... I don't know...

After watching the radar, I can't imagine what clearance they were hoping for.
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Cap747
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« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2010, 04:13:01 PM »

it sounds like person B comes on and says something-- "you don't under[stand]..." maybe, and person A steps on him and forcefully declares that they're landing now.  (It starts at about 1:34 in the second, amended clip above.)

I think I hear fear in person B's voice.  Whether it's the fear of a first officer who's career is flashing before his eyes after his captain gets in a fight with ATC... or something else... I don't know...

Don't get too confused, these clips are edited to the parts involving AA2H only.. there is some time in between the transmissions..

The first two messages are about avoiding weather, 10 degrees left and the second he say's 5 or 10 to the right..I mean to the left..

don't mix this up...
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VampyreGTX
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« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2010, 04:14:49 PM »

Capt, he's talking about the second clip in this thread, the top of the second page, not my clip from approach where you hear the requests for deviation due to cloud buiildup.
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Cap747
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« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2010, 04:25:06 PM »

Capt, he's talking about the second clip in this thread, the top of the second page, not my clip from approach where you hear the requests for deviation due to cloud buiildup.

Yup, I could only hear it in slow motion....
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davalos08
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« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2010, 04:29:39 PM »

is really a thinker, they communicated really bad. Tower should have asked them what was the nature of the emergency
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VampyreGTX
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« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2010, 04:32:35 PM »

Granted, it's all monday morning quarterbacking; however, I think the tower knew it was a BS emergency declaration.  They never bother to ask the nature of the emergency, never ask if they require assitsance/equipment, or obtain souls or fuel on board. There are plenty of breaks in the transmissions that they would have had time to inquire and go through the proper emergency procedures. 

Tongue Too bad we can't hear the CVR..... Cheesy
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klkm
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« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2010, 04:35:51 PM »

This is truly an odd thing the pilot did.  I have had those conditional emergency declarations before, especially with americans.  I work in a center so it is usually a request to deviate for weather, and I cannot clear them to due to traffic, they will typically say "we need the deviation or we are declaring an emergency", I am more then willing to work with them, and I understand they cannot go through the weather.  I try to provide the safest way to deviate given the traffic, and let them declare the emergency or workout something else so they can safely do it without breaking separation standards.  

This pilot though was just out of line, in my opinion.  He told the controller he couldn't land on 22L, then with no reason what so ever just came right back with "and if you can't get me 31R I am declaring an emergency".  Now the controller takes it as I would, and says ok i will work that out.  He likely then hits the line to the tracon, and is coordinating the AAL go around, the new runway request, and so forth as the pilot is now breaking off and doing his own thing.  The pilot put his flight in great danger by just doing whatever he felt in a very busy terminal environment.  He breaks off the approach, and sets up on final for an active departure runway, with an aircraft ON that runway, and with traffic setup to land on an intersecting runway!    

I am sure if you follow the ground chatter after that, there is a phone number to the tower thrown out there, and hopefully the pilot has a better explanation then the nothing he gave at the time of the incident.  I would hope the explanation is worthy of his actions.  There very well could have been a declaration of low fuel while he was in the holding pattern.  The tower would/should have known about this from approach, and likely would have done everything they could have to circle him back to 31R as quickly as possible.  I highly doubt the fuel situation was so critical that some vectors back to the runway would have them out of fuel, if that is the case they should have diverted in the holding pattern.  Declaring a fuel emergency once they realized they were not going to make it on their first approach, would have saved a lot of headaches, the tower would have understood right away, started to clear the area and get things set up.  Instead the pilot just started to do his own approach....I know someone at the tower maybe I will see if they have any insight.  
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