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Author Topic: When things go HOT at JFK - Original Postings  (Read 6092 times)
Delta Echo
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« on: May 23, 2010, 10:52:10 PM »

It seems that some people here do not believe is letting a post remain just because there are other view in it. For those of you that missed it...

Here is a quick run down!!

Cap747 posted a audio clip. I thought the clip was pretty good but I wanted to correct/educate a few people that posted about the goings on in the clip.  After my explanation was not good enough for Cap747 he deleted the entire post and reposted.

So to all of you who commented and whose words were lost because of the acts of one individual, I went digging through the cache folder in my browser and have recreated the  original post... here by me so it cannot be removed again

Delta Echo
« Last Edit: May 23, 2010, 11:31:00 PM by Delta Echo » Logged
Delta Echo
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« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2010, 10:54:08 PM »

Quote from: Cap747
Picked this little upset up at the tower feed, when there are three non-US scheduled flights don't exactly understand the communication of the tower...

If I heard it right it was Berlin 7450 who stopped with it's tail over the runway while Mexicana was rolling with Turkish at final approach...



Quote from: speedotann
Love That Controller!!



Quote from: matthammer
I wonder how we deal with violations by foreign air carrier pilots. Can they fill out a NASA ASRS form to escape being violated?



Quote from: captray
Well, actually that is not a violation.

It certainly doesn't help but, until you are clear of the runway, you own it.
It all comes down to situation awareness. You have to realize that there are more aircraft behind you and that it may indeed be you that is holding up the parade.

I try to keep that in mind and exit as quickly as safety allows.



Quote from: cptbrw
You know things are tight when the usually easy going Dennis gets hot with someone.



Quote from: yesteraeon
Honest question, not intended as a criticism of anyone:

As I understand, the tower issued a takeoff clearance to Mexicana having instructed Berlin to exit the runway promptly, but BEFORE he had confirmation that Berlin was indeed clear. I'm just wondering if this is normal procedure?



Quote from: matthammer
Quote from: captray
Well, actually that is not a violation.

If the FAA hates you enough, they can always get you with C.F.R. 14 § 91.13. I'm sure they'd have no problem saying it's careless to leave your tail overhanging a busy runway at an international airport.



Quote from: speedotann
The controller was under the impression that Berlin would get off the runway ASAP. We cannot see what happened. It must have been bad for him to get pissed like that.. That controller never gets Cross with anyone!



Quote from: Cap747

Quote from: yesteraeon
Honest question, not intended as a criticism of anyone:
As I understand, the tower issued a takeoff clearance to Mexicana having instructed Berlin to exit the runway promptly, but BEFORE he had confirmation that Berlin was indeed clear. I'm just wondering if this is normal procedure?

Things are just a little different now, because the closure of runway 31L / 13R Mexicana was explicitly instructed twice to look for him self to see if the runway was clear, so in the thought of Berlin continuing this one stopped with the tail hanging over the runway



Quote from: yesteraeon
Ah thanks for the clarification Cap747. Makes a lot more sense now.



Quote from: rekno13
Air China 981 was being funny today too, told to hold short but asked if they could cross right after they acknowledged the hold short.



Quote from: Cap747
Anyone know how long it takes for a controller to cool down?



Quote from: rekno13
Just from listening I feel like they usually get right back to normal, the guy you hear I heard at the same time and it sounded like he got back to his professional baseline and didn't let it affect him at all. But I have heard ones, and sometimes posted here too, where the whole night is just crazy and towards the end they have shorter tempers, but still entirely professional, just don't ask stupid questions kind of thing. Just like anyone at work : ) except they are really good at self control it seems!



Quote from: dmlas
Quote from: cap747
Anyone know how long it takes for a controller to cool down?

it depends on so many factors its somewhere between instantly and 30 years! seriously tis controller was trying to help the pilots  and because berlin failed to exit the runway his plan went to hell fast but he fixed it nicely and even was easy on berlin as he should be. knowing    good controllers he was probably madder at himself but got over it in a matter of seconds. He was trying to get some airplanes out and because it didnt work out he immedistely went to plan b. He was mad cause the way he had it set up it should have been a beautiful thing.



Quote from: aviator_06
Sounds like me when i'm playing Airport Madness!





Quote from: delta echo
Ok Lets clear up things...

Quote from: captray
Well, actually that is not a violation.


It certainly doesn't help but, until you are clear of the runway, you own it.
It all comes down to situation awareness. You have to realize that there are more aircraft behind you and that it may indeed be you that is holding up the parade.

I try to keep that in mind and exit as quickly as safety allows.

Are you serious!!!  The aircraft has a requirement to continue past the hold bars, THE WHOLE AIRCRAFT. Even if this means inchoating on another taxiway. If you think other wise then you are just as big an issue as all the other pain in the A$$ pilots we have to deal with

If you feel I am incorrect please read the following(notice this is the A.I.M.!!!)
http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/ATPubs/AIM/AIMbasic2-11-10.pdf

4−3−20. Exiting the Runway After Landing
The following procedures must be followed after
landing and reaching taxi speed.
a. Exit the runway without delay at the first
available taxiway or on a taxiway as instructed by
ATC. Pilots shall not exit the landing runway onto
another runway unless authorized by ATC. At
airports with an operating control tower, pilots should
not stop or reverse course on the runway without first
obtaining ATC approval.
b. Taxi clear of the runway unless otherwise
directed by ATC. An aircraft is considered clear of the
runway when all parts of the aircraft are past the
runway edge and there are no restrictions to its
continued movement beyond the runway holding
position markings. In the absence of ATC instructions,
the pilot is expected to taxi clear of the landing
runway by taxiing beyond the runway holding
position markings associated with the landing
runway, even if that requires the aircraft to protrude
into or cross another taxiway or ramp area. Once all
parts of the aircraft have crossed the runway holding
position markings, the pilot must hold unless further
instructions have been issued by ATC.

NOTE−
1. The tower will issue the pilot instructions which will
permit the aircraft to enter another taxiway, runway, or
ramp area when required.
2. Guidance contained in subparagraphs a and b above is
considered an integral part of the landing clearance and
satisfies the requirement of 14 CFR Section 91.129.
c. Immediately change to ground control frequency
when advised by the tower and obtain a taxi
clearance.

NOTE−
1. The tower will issue instructions required to resolve any
potential conflictions with other ground traffic prior to
advising the pilot to contact ground control.
2. A clearance from ATC to taxi to the ramp authorizes the
aircraft to cross all runways and taxiway intersections.
Pilots not familiar with the taxi route should request
specific taxi instructions from ATC.


Let me add a note here! : For ATC purposes you are clear of the runway when all parts of your airplane are past the "RUNWAY EDGE"(those white lines along each side of the runway), not the hold bars, and you are unimpeded to continue past the holdbars!! If the runway is 50ft wide, you are clear of the runway when all parts of your plane are greater than 25ft from the centerline.  It is still your requirement to continue past the holdbars, and our requirement to ensure you are not impeded from doing that!!!

Quote from: yesteraeon
Honest question, not intended as a criticism of anyone:

As I understand, the tower issued a takeoff clearance to Mexicana having instructed Berlin to exit the runway promptly, but BEFORE he had confirmation that Berlin was indeed clear. I'm just wondering if this is normal procedure?


You should listen to the "tape" again!!!!  Although Mexico said "Rolling" he was never cleared. He was trying to help move his airplane!!
He(the controller) never issues a TAKE OFF CLEARANCE.  He was about to say CLEAR FOR TAKEOFF but he then went back to Berlin and told him to clear the runway.

Also The 7110.65 has this to say about the issue(more direct to your question)
3-9-5. ANTICIPATING SEPARATION
Takeoff clearance needs not be withheld until
prescribed separation exists if there is a reasonable
assurance it will exist when the aircraft starts takeoff
roll.
REFERENCE
P/CG Term- Clear of the Runway.

Simply...  You can say CLEAR FOR TAKEOFF with traffic on the runway/crossing the runway if the runway will be clear when the aircraft begins "TAKE OFF ROLL" this is defined as the "forward movement down the runway"!!!!!

The aircraft can still be making the turn to line up on the centerline and you can say CLEAR FOR TAKEOFF

Quote from: Cap747
Things are just a little different now, because the closure of runway 31L / 13R Mexicana was explicitly instructed twice to look for him self to see if the runway was clear, so in the thought of Berlin continuing this one stopped with the tail hanging over the runway

I don't know what you are saying...
Mexicana was explicitly instructed twice to look for him self to see if the runway was clear
I don't know where this comes from??  He told him Be ready when cleared

I say: "SWA123 Runway 8 Position and Hold, Have them powered up and ready to go, traffic company on a 4 mile final"
This means -- dont think for one second you will be able to putz around, when I say GO you GO!!!


Quote from: cap747
Anyone know how long it takes for a controller to cool down?

What are you talking about??  Cool Down... it depends on the person and what happened!!

Quote from: matthammer
I wonder how we deal with violations by foreign air carrier pilots. Can they fill out a NASA ASRS form to escape being violated?

Nothing happens... If you think the FAA is a bureaucracy you should try the State Department!!!!!  That is where the issue would go to...


Delta Echo!!!




Quote from: cap747
Quote from: delta echo
Ok Lets clear up things...


Simply...  You can say CLEAR FOR TAKEOFF with traffic on the runway/crossing the runway if the runway will be clear when the aircraft begins "TAKE OFF ROLL" this is defined as the "forward movement down the runway"!!!!!

The aircraft can still be making the turn to line up on the centerline and you can say CLEAR FOR TAKEOFF

Quote from: cap747
Things are just a little different now, because the closure of runway 31L / 13R Mexicana was explicitly instructed twice to look for him self to see if the runway was clear, so in the thought of Berlin continuing this one stopped with the tail hanging over the runway

I don't know what you are saying...
Mexicana was explicitly instructed twice to look for him self to see if the runway was clear
I don't know where this comes from??  He told him Be ready when cleared

Quote from: cap747
Anyone know how long it takes for a controller to cool down?

What are you talking about??  Cool Down... it depends on the person and what happened!!

When I hear a controller say: be ready when cleared in this situation it also might be taxi into position, see for your self if the airplane in front of you is clear off the runway, then take off, that is also exactly what happened.. Mexicana was rolling in the believe Berlin would be continuing off the runway.. This can be done because the same amount of airtraffic is coming in and going out of JFK with one runway less available... They have to speed up traffic for this amount of airplanes... As a matter I have heard JBU's going the same way in other recordings.. when they were told ready ( not be ready) when cleared, they didn't needed another clearance... because they understand the controllers intensions..



Quote from: delta echo
Quote from: Cap747
When I hear a controller say: be ready when cleared in this situation it also might be taxi into position, see for your self if the airplane in front of you is clear off the runway, then take off, that is also exactly what happened.. Mexicana was rolling in the believe Berlin would be continuing off the runway.. This can be done because the same amount of airtraffic is coming in and going out of JFK with one runway less available... They have to speed up traffic for this amount of airplanes... As a matter I have heard JBU's going the same way in other recordings.. when they were told ready ( not be ready) when cleared, they didn't needed another clearance... because they understand the controllers intensions..


Really!!!!  I mean Really!!!  No, No... Really!!!  Are you a pilot? If so, Here is what I want you to do... Take your Pilot License and burn it!!

If you believe this is what "Be read when cleared" means you are mistaken!!!!

There is nothing in Air Traffic that means "Clear for Takeoff" except "Clear for takeoff"

What the controller was doing, and we all do it, was "Painting a picture" for the pilots, telling them that I need you to get moving when I say move.  You are not telling a pilot to "LOOK AND GO"

What happened here is what happens many times through out air traffic.

I have told many pilots to taxi into position and hold and be ready...  I personally like: "Taxi into position and don't plan to hold" or "Position and Hold, spool 'em up and be standing on the breaks"

after instructions like this I have seen some pilot, usually in corporates, line up on the runway and "coast" down the runway at like 5-10 mph just so they can help out!!!

If anybody out there thinks "see for your self if the airplane in front of you is clear off the runway, then take off" is what the controller was really saying and, as a pilot, take it upon himself to just take off they are not correct...

What did happen here was Mexico assumed the transmission included a take off clearance so that is why he started rolling!!  Not because he thought he was instructed to just begin to take off when the runway is clear!!

So to Cap747(which it is obvious you are not a real 747 Capitan), please only add to this forum when you are completely sure you are accurate.

There have been enough headache brought down on Air Traffic Controllers from people trying to create rules in this forum and claiming they are SMEs(subject matter experts) and not correctly representing AirTraffic and Pilots

Delta Echo



Quote from: TC
Bravo!!


And this was the post that Cap747 deleted

Delta Echo
« Last Edit: May 23, 2010, 11:26:37 PM by Delta Echo » Logged
SASD209
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« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2010, 11:11:16 PM »

Ummm...OK. Cheers!
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Delta Echo
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« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2010, 11:29:01 PM »

So Cap747  I hope you can respect the words of others and not just delete a topic just because you were not happy with the track it was taking.

Delta Echo
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sykocus
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« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2010, 12:34:29 AM »

it looks like you need a hobby...preferably one that does not involve the internet.
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Yesterday I couldn't spell air traffic controller. Today I R one.
AviatorJud
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« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2010, 01:41:13 PM »

it looks like you need a hobby...preferably one that does not involve the internet.

I second that.  D.E. I think it would have been better for you if your comments stayed deleted.  You were doing the internet equivalent of screaming in peoples faces, and no one wants to listen to that.  You may have been correct on what you were saying, but if you're gonna be an ass about it no one will want to listen to you.  Give it a rest with the stupid exclamations and calm the f*** down.
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speedotann
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« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2010, 04:01:48 PM »

Newbies learn what they can say and can't say! I pissed a few people off when I first was on this site but figured it out.... Just get over it! You guys are making it worse by feeding into it.
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Cessna 152

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ME- I am peddling as fast as I can!!
djmodifyd
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« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2010, 05:02:07 PM »

i love it when people who are not controllers argue about how ATC works when none of them are controllers.


oh..and delta echo.... your "spool them up be steppin on the brakes" is completely wrong as well...if anything happens it will be totally on you.

the correct way to do this.... would be to issue the "position and hold" instructions...and then when you clear them, clear them for "immediate takeoff"

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BK88
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« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2010, 06:07:44 PM »

And most FLMs are just the master of everything.

Quote
3-9-4. TAXI INTO POSITION AND HOLD (TIPH)

d. When an aircraft is authorized to taxi into position and hold, inform it of the closest traffic requesting a full-stop, touch-and-go, stop-and-go, option or unrestricted low approach to the same runway.

EXAMPLE-
“United Five, runway one eight, position and hold. Traffic a Boeing Seven Thirty Seven, six mile final.”

Deemed failed training session.  Looks like someone needs there own skills checked during busy traffic.

Procedures vs techniques..... the age old question....

The way a CPC (Certified Professional Controller) inflicts his/her voice while issuing the instruction can imply different meanings.  Talking slow or stating a clearance with an uncertain tone will not convey confidence to the pilots and they may be less willing to help a controller out.  However, talking with confidence on frequency will get most moving well.

I wouldn't use "spool'em up," but I do add "Be ready" or "be ready for an immediate" after the traffic call if I'm running a tight squeeze play.  Of course SWA is the best airline to fight into the tight arrival gaps, as they are always willing to take the quick departure when cleared.

Of course you won't get in trouble for always using and never deviating from the phraseology in the .65.  However, to move traffic safely and efficiently, a controller may need to "prep" the pilot for the next control instruction so that minimal to no delay is had when the pilots executes said instruction.  Techniques, used correctly can help move the while the agency continues to slow the traffic down with new interpretations of rules by those who could not move traffic at all.
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KBOITDog
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Oshkosh '08


« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2010, 08:34:26 PM »

Maybe we should all take the advice of another favorite JFK controller...

EDIT... Sorry forgot to thank ReverseThrust for the original post if the clip.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 12:29:31 AM by KBOITDog » Logged

Tony
djmodifyd
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« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2010, 08:54:18 PM »

And most FLMs are just the master of everything.

Quote
3-9-4. TAXI INTO POSITION AND HOLD (TIPH)

d. When an aircraft is authorized to taxi into position and hold, inform it of the closest traffic requesting a full-stop, touch-and-go, stop-and-go, option or unrestricted low approach to the same runway.

EXAMPLE-
“United Five, runway one eight, position and hold. Traffic a Boeing Seven Thirty Seven, six mile final.”

Deemed failed training session.  Looks like someone needs there own skills checked during busy traffic.

Procedures vs techniques..... the age old question....

The way a CPC (Certified Professional Controller) inflicts his/her voice while issuing the instruction can imply different meanings.  Talking slow or stating a clearance with an uncertain tone will not convey confidence to the pilots and they may be less willing to help a controller out.  However, talking with confidence on frequency will get most moving well.

I wouldn't use "spool'em up," but I do add "Be ready" or "be ready for an immediate" after the traffic call if I'm running a tight squeeze play.  Of course SWA is the best airline to fight into the tight arrival gaps, as they are always willing to take the quick departure when cleared.

Of course you won't get in trouble for always using and never deviating from the phraseology in the .65.  However, to move traffic safely and efficiently, a controller may need to "prep" the pilot for the next control instruction so that minimal to no delay is had when the pilots executes said instruction.  Techniques, used correctly can help move the while the agency continues to slow the traffic down with new interpretations of rules by those who could not move traffic at all.

i never said i was a master...i was just correcting the guy that corrects everyone.

i don't get your deemed failed training session comment...so ill let that be.

i will add...if you tell an aircraft to P&H and the traffic you issue is 3 miles out..or 4...or whatever...the smaller the number the more a the P&H pilot knows he needs to go when cleared.


...and THATS not saying i've never said "be ready" either  wink

believe me...i know how controlling works...not saying im a god or anything...but i am NOT one of those FLM's that is scared of working traffic. 

I want 4 miles in trail on final...nothing more...when performing a skill check...not 5..6..7...(unless wake is involved of course...)

Im all for pushing traffic...not letting it sit and wait...

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Delta Echo
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« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2010, 10:03:58 PM »

I was not yelling at all. On the contrary, I thought it was very rude of Cap747 to delete his topic after myself and others took the time to ask questions and respond to them.

I was simply making the point that if you open a topic on this forum no matter which way the topic goes the right thing to do is let the topic go on in spite of your pride.

People are going to give their opinion no matter what. Just because I was demeaned on this topic I am not going to delete this topic. It is another users opinion and, although I dont agree, I will leave it here.   I assume the moderators have warned them about the forum rules about dumping on other people just like I was warned.

Quote from: djmodifyd
i love it when people who are not controllers argue about how ATC works when none of them are controllers.

oh..and delta echo.... your "spool them up be steppin on the brakes" is completely wrong as well...if anything happens it will be totally on you.

I am a controller. Have been for 5 years.
This is technique. This is not wrong. It is how I "paint the picture". You can use what ever technique you wish.

Quote from: BK88
Of course SWA is the best airline to fight into the tight arrival gaps, as they are always willing to take the quick departure when cleared.

Not just SWA but NKS and AJM are pretty good. Never try with an AAL MD88 or any MD80 for that matter.

Delta Echo
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 10:07:57 PM by Delta Echo » Logged
djmodifyd
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« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2010, 10:10:41 PM »

I was not yelling at all. On the contrary, I thought it was very rude of Cap747 to delete his topic after myself and others took the time to ask questions and respond to them.

I was simply making the point that if you open a topic on this forum no matter which way the topic goes the right thing to do is let the topic go on in spite of your pride.

People are going to give their opinion no matter what. Just because I was demeaned on this topic I am not going to delete this topic. It is another users opinion and, although I dont agree, I will leave it here.   I assume the moderators have warned them about the forum rules about dumping on other people just like I was warned.

Quote from: djmodifyd
i love it when people who are not controllers argue about how ATC works when none of them are controllers.

oh..and delta echo.... your "spool them up be steppin on the brakes" is completely wrong as well...if anything happens it will be totally on you.

I am a controller. Have been for 5 years.
This is technique. This is not wrong. It is how I "paint the picture". You can use what ever technique you wish.

Quote from: BK88
Of course SWA is the best airline to fight into the tight arrival gaps, as they are always willing to take the quick departure when cleared.

Not just SWA but NKS and AJM are pretty good. Never try with an AAL MD88 or any MD80 for that matter.

Delta Echo

my mistake...im just so used to non-controllers acting like they know everything.

yes you can use techniques...never said that you couldn't....i just mean't that a lawyer would burn you if anything happened (don't know what would happened...but anything a lawyer can pin on you they will) because they would ask where "spool them up be steppin on the brakes" is at.  because in a way you are telling them how to fly the aircraft.  and again, im sure you are not the only controller that says that, i'm just adding fuel to the fire


and add AAY to that list...they are slower than anything else i've seen...must be an MD80 thing.  
gotta love with SWA takes an intersection departure infront of everyone else as well!
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 10:13:33 PM by djmodifyd » Logged
Delta Echo
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« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2010, 10:42:44 PM »


gotta love with SWA takes an intersection departure infront of everyone else as well!


I love the sound in a pilots voice when you ask them if they are ready and they hesitate to respond and the SWA behind them chimes in and says we are and can take it from Alpha 1

Delta Echo
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mtlatc
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« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2010, 11:01:37 PM »

Arguing on the Internet is useless, unless you are bored.
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