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Author Topic: ZOA testing the patience of Cathay 870 pilot  (Read 18072 times)
ogogog
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« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2010, 08:26:13 AM »

WOW, all you arm chair controllers are good. iam a recent retired air traffic controller 29 years, with 20 in ZAU and i didnt hear the controller haveing a deal.i heard an aircraft havening a RA.i also heard the controller make a small mistake that she corrected, as for QNH 95% of the controller that i worked with didnt know what QNH meant.man you people like to make mountains out of mole hills.heres a hint just because an aircraft has an RA dose not mean there was a deal, we get false RAs all the time,even in the FLs.but like ive always said ATC is an easy job untill you have to really do it.

OG
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speedotann
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« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2010, 11:20:07 AM »

Arm Chair Controllers!! I Love It!! I knew what QNH meant only because of some of the Europeans I have talked to when I was getting my PPL... At first I thought it was Q and H... So it was confusing, especially with the accent.... She might of thought he was hitting on her, you never know....

B
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ttyn
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« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2010, 01:21:18 PM »

QNH is for atmospheric pressure in millibars. Technically if I request QNH I would have to receive an answer like "QNH 1013".
Altimeter is for atmospheric pressure in inches. If I request altimeter I'd have to receive an answer like "Altimeter 2992".

Each country decides which measure to use, millibars or inches, but ATC should be able deal with both. For ex, in my country we officially use QNH, but we have a conversion charts next to the mike in case some pilot requests it.

Regards!
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djmodifyd
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« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2010, 02:43:09 PM »

The one that used the wrong phraseology initially was the controller. Not the pilot. It's understandable that the CX pilot sounds irritated.
1) He gets an RA, which means that the CTR controller had a deal (Controller's operational error).
2) Then the controller issues a "descend and maintain FL100". Transition Level for the US is FL180. Anything below that should be expressed as altitude not Flight Level.
3) Even when the controller corrected the mistake by saying "descend and maintain 10,000" she HAS to give the altimeter (ATC 7110.65 2-7-2.e  
Quote
When issuing clearance to descend below the
lowest usable flight level, advise the pilot of the
altimeter setting of the weather reporting station
nearest the point the aircraft will descend below that
flight level.
She didn't give the altimeter, which was her 3d mistake in a row with the same aircraft, and led the pilot to ask for the "QNH".
Probably she lost her nerve with the deal which is understandable.

As for the QNH, it is included in the PCG which is a requirement for the controller to know, thus it's included in the .65. The pilot was speaking English fluently. If the controller heard the word QNH for the first time in her life, what can I say...



I've never heard QNH used, and to tell you the truth wouldn't have known what it meant until I saw this thread. Sorry to admit that I don't have the entire PCG memorized.

A TCAS RA doesn't necessarily mean a deal. In the case of a rapidly climbing ac under a level ac, TCAS doesn't know what the climber (or descender) will stop at and can give an RA. Part of the reason why it's a good idea to call traffic for merging targets, even if they're more than 1k apart.

Sounds like a trainee based on the traffic call and the flight level one zero zero, maybe even the dside.

thank you, plus 1 to all parts.
i've never heard of QNH before, and for sure sounds like a developmental, and when she came back and corrected the FL100 mistake it was most likely the OJTI that corrected her and she came back and fixed it.

i love it when people who aren't controllers, or who havn't even set foot in an ATC facility rip controllers apart...
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aviator_06
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WWW
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2010, 09:00:26 PM »

Sounds like a flustered controller to me.
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wweled
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« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2010, 12:37:54 PM »

There is proper phraseology for asking for an altimeter setting and QNH isn't it.  The pilot of CPA870 knew what the problem was and kept insisting on using QNH finally mixed with "altimeter".  

Aviation 101, use proper phraseology.

but it's in the handbook?

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/pcg/Q.HTM
The pilot used the proper phraseology, QNH is internationally known for the american term Altimeter setting.
If you heard line up and hold, would you be thinking that is not a proper phraseology for taxi into position and hold? please do not go to England.

I flew several houndred hours in the states, as a private, commercial and instructor pilot.
I have learned the American Phraseology and even though is plain simple, the international phraseology might be different some times
QNH and QFE are termns not tought in the states, but used worldwide.

I invite you to fly in South America,
I am now living in Argentina and you won't hear altimeter setting but QNH.

regards
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ect76
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EGPH


« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2010, 01:35:41 PM »

If you heard line up and hold, would you be thinking that is not a proper phraseology for taxi into position and hold? please do not go to England.

Not to nitpick but the correct terminology in the UK is "Line up and Wait runway xx".
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englishpilot
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« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2010, 09:26:24 AM »

If you heard line up and hold, would you be thinking that is not a proper phraseology for taxi into position and hold? please do not go to England.

Not to nitpick but the correct terminology in the UK is "Line up and Wait runway xx".

Just to let you know 'Line up and wait' is soon to be the standard in the US and 'into position and hold' is being done away with -  The FAA is making this change (and probably some others) to harmonize the US system more with other international aviation protocols.

Source:  FAA Runway Safety Seminar about 2 months ago.
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Hollis
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« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2010, 11:33:57 AM »

To clarify (hopefully!) -

Standard (barometric) Air Pressure at Sea Level:

Metric system,
101.325 kPa (kiloPascals) =
1013.25 mb (millibars of Mercury, Hg) = QNH = (Altimeter setting)
760 mmHg (millimeters of Mercury)

English sysyem,
14.696 psi =
29.92 inHg (Altimeter setting).

(QFE refers to the physical height above an airport, NOT Sea Level)

Since the US uses the English system (foot, pounds, etc.) it uses Altimeter settings based on inHg for aircraft operations.
(e.g., altimeter 2978)
Most other countries use the Metric system, hence they use QNH based on millibars of Hg pressure.
(e.g. QNH 1008)



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khonmanrak
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« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2010, 10:21:46 AM »

Sounds like a flustered controller to me. .

 smiley smiley smiley smiley smiley
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Cap747
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« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2010, 04:24:10 PM »

QNH is for atmospheric pressure in millibars. Technically if I request QNH I would have to receive an answer like "QNH 1013".
Altimeter is for atmospheric pressure in inches. If I request altimeter I'd have to receive an answer like "Altimeter 2992".

Each country decides which measure to use, millibars or inches, but ATC should be able deal with both. For ex, in my country we officially use QNH, but we have a conversion charts next to the mike in case some pilot requests it.

Regards!

Is QNH in millibars? or in Hpa (Hecto Pascal)?
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gtavc_03
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« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2010, 11:03:41 AM »

Well, I'd say, both controller and the pilot can do better. As for the pilot's side, he should be aware that he's in America where altimeter is used over QNH. (But! most CX pilots are British and Aussies, so.. tho most of those dispatched on US routes based in US )

About the controller, as mentioned, QNH is an ICAO language, so controllers so be aware with that. (not quite sure what FAA requires) Ofcourse she is not required to issue the converted pressure setting in hpa.

No offense, but QNH is rather common in the world, i guess it's the US and Japan still using altimeter, while Japan includes QNH setting in METAR.


Is QNH in millibars? or in Hpa (Hecto Pascal)?

They can be in either one.
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lfertall
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« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2010, 03:01:48 PM »

QNH=Question Nautical Height--Millibars or hectopascals
QFE=Question Field Elevation--Millibars or hectopascals
QNE=Question Nautical Elevation--millibars or hectopascals
Now you can win a beer at the bar when they ask you what it means!
As for adopting ICAO phraseology......ie. "line up and wait"
they have another nasty habit over there of saying"line up and wait, behind arriving traffic". I hope I am not a witness the day when they give that clearance and someone blocks the "behind arriving traffic part". Maybe then the FAA will grow a backbone and not adopt ICAO unsafe practices. They also say "cleared for take off, behind arriving traffic.  ish
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Blackbird78
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« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2010, 07:58:07 PM »

As for adopting ICAO phraseology......ie. "line up and wait"
they have another nasty habit over there of saying"line up and wait, behind arriving traffic". I hope I am not a witness the day when they give that clearance and someone blocks the "behind arriving traffic part". Maybe then the FAA will grow a backbone and not adopt ICAO unsafe practices. They also say "cleared for take off, behind arriving traffic.  ish

When using conditional clearances: always say condition first -- "ABC123, behind next landing (type), line up and wait" (can be followed by an extra 'behind')  However, in ICAO world there is nothing such as "cleared for take off, behind ...". Even no "Number x, cleared to land".

Btw, I was a witness several days when pilots mistook 'hold position' for 'position and hold' ...
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