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Author Topic: "If you can hear me rock your wings" LOL  (Read 16089 times)
philip
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« on: June 18, 2008, 03:19:57 PM »

Sorry but I just thought that was a funny comment...the ground control just a minute ago at JFK saying to jet blue "If you can hear me, rock your wings" I mean he's on the ground ROFL Cheesy
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2008, 03:33:17 PM »

If the plane is a rockin' don't come a knockin'.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
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« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2008, 07:58:25 PM »

"Rock your wings" was probably easier to say than "move your control surfaces."  Wagging your ailerons when on the ground is a standard way to acknowledge tower in a NORDO operation.

--Carlos V.
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jahulian
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« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2008, 10:39:58 PM »

ummm... why would JetBlue operate under NORDO?
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Switch Monkey
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« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2008, 12:48:33 AM »

ummm... why would JetBlue operate under NORDO?


ummm....broke radio, wax in ears, forgot to plug in headest.
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SweedChef
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« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2008, 07:54:29 AM »

Guys, I think it was a joke. The comedian ground controller was working.

Any idea exactly when that was? I tried to find it to post but had no luck.
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philip
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« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2008, 02:47:27 PM »

Same time that I posted the post Cheesy
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cessna157
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« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2008, 10:30:47 PM »

Must be the guy's only ammo.  Was taxiing out (will post a thread/interesting picture in a moment) today and ground had an American not answering him, told him "If you hear ground, rock your wings"
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philip
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« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2008, 01:07:41 PM »

Be great if they did have other ammo...like if you hear ground get the flight attendent to shake their bum at the window Cheesy
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aviator_06
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« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2008, 04:12:16 PM »

No Audio Clip?
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beechsundowner
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« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2008, 05:53:45 PM »

"Rock your wings" was probably easier to say than "move your control surfaces."  Wagging your ailerons when on the ground is a standard way to acknowledge tower in a NORDO operation.

--Carlos V.


If you are nordo, how would you know WHEN to wag any control surfaces??? 

For tower OPS, there is a light gun process in acknowledging ATC and they can use the light gun for ground OPS, but that comes from tower, not ground.  You use your lights or control surfaces or even your transponder IDENT in the case where you may be able to hear but not transmit.

Allen
Aviation videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/BeechSundowner
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« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2008, 04:26:41 PM »


If you are nordo, how would you know WHEN to wag any control surfaces??? 

Like you mentioned, there's various grades of NORDO.  I myself have had instances where either my PTT quit, or my mic quit and I could hear, but not transmit.

Quote
For tower OPS, there is a light gun process in acknowledging ATC and they can use the light gun for ground OPS, but that comes from tower, not ground.

Hard to look at the tower light gun signals if you're facing away in an airliner on a narrow taxiway and can't turn around.

It is all part of the options in the controller/pilot bag of tricks.

--Carlos V.
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NatcaDog
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« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2008, 10:24:29 AM »

If you are nordo, how would you know WHEN to wag any control surfaces??? 

That's why the first word of the instruction is "If."

For tower OPS, there is a light gun process in acknowledging ATC and they can use the light gun for ground OPS, but that comes from tower, not ground.

Ummm...just where do you think the ground controller is? That's why towers are tall, and located where (hopefully) all the movement areas can be seen from.

You use your lights or control surfaces or even your transponder IDENT in the case where you may be able to hear but not transmit.

And if you are facing away from the tower, or if the airport doesn't have ground movement radar, how would you acknowledge the instruction?

Like others have stated, it's an option that can be used when trying to communicate with a NORDO aircraft. Would it have been clearer if the controller had said "...move your control surfaces/flaps?" "Rock your wings" is pretty standard in a VFR tower environment, so most pilots understand it.

FWIW, there is actually a prescribed phraseology in FAA Order 7110.65, that says "If you hear (facility name), ident." Over 19 yeasr in the business, and I can't figure out why we just can't say "Ident." If the pilot hears it, he will. If he doesn't, he won't. Pretty simple.
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beechsundowner
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« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2008, 07:58:18 PM »


Ummm...just where do you think the ground controller is? That's why towers are tall, and located where (hopefully) all the movement areas can be seen from.

DUHHHH, should have thought of that before posting. good point!

And if you are facing away from the tower, or if the airport doesn't have ground movement radar, how would you acknowledge the instruction?

For your first sentence, turn toward the tower.  If I was NORDO and got permission prior to taxi, I would not move into a movement area unless I received a visual instruction.  Most ramps are in non movement areas and you can taxi or turn into a position to see the tower.  Of course if the AFD sez that certain area was not visible by tower, then there probably is in place via phone call the ability to get taxi instructions.

KJAN to my knowledge doesn't have ground radar so again, light gun instructions would apply.  http://www.csgnetwork.com/avlightsignals.html for those that may not be familiar with light gun ops (I C you are ATC so I figure you already know)  grin

To answer your question on acknowledgement assuming electrical system wasn't the cause of NORDO, blinking the landing light would help or moving the control surfaces with the hopes the tower folks were using binoculars.


FWIW, there is actually a prescribed phraseology in FAA Order 7110.65, that says "If you hear (facility name), ident." Over 19 yeasr in the business, and I can't figure out why we just can't say "Ident." If the pilot hears it, he will. If he doesn't, he won't. Pretty simple.

Having worked for the gubment myself, figuring out what the bean counters make up in rules boggles my mind, fully understand what you say  shocked

Allen
Aviation videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/BeechSundowner
« Last Edit: July 17, 2008, 08:06:58 PM by beechsundowner » Logged

NatcaDog
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« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2008, 10:03:48 AM »

For your first sentence, turn toward the tower.  If I was NORDO and got permission prior to taxi, I would not move into a movement area unless I received a visual instruction.  Most ramps are in non movement areas and you can taxi or turn into a position to see the tower.  Of course if the AFD sez that certain area was not visible by tower, then there probably is in place via phone call the ability to get taxi instructions.

KJAN to my knowledge doesn't have ground radar so again, light gun instructions would apply.  http://www.csgnetwork.com/avlightsignals.html for those that may not be familiar with light gun ops (I C you are ATC so I figure you already know) 

To answer your question on acknowledgement assuming electrical system wasn't the cause of NORDO, blinking the landing light would help or moving the control surfaces with the hopes the tower folks were using binoculars.


If the NORDO situation had started while the aircraft was on the ramp, then most of the time, I would expect the aircraft to STAY ON THE RAMP!

If the situation occurred while already taxiing, and the controller needed to amend the issued clearance/instructions, is where it gets tricky. If the aircraft was pointed in a direction whereby the controller could see it's lights, then the lights would work. But what if the aircraft was pointed in another direction?

Again, it's just another of the many, but limited, tools at the controller's disposal. In an unusual situation like a NORDO aircraft taxiing, we do whatever we can to ensure the safest possible outcome.

BTW, don't assume that you'll see the light gun signals just becasue we're using them. Especially during the day. Those guns are OLD, and the bulbs and/or reflectors aren't the best. Also, the next time you're taxiing, really pay attention to how much time you spend watching the tower for a light gun signal. If you KNOW you're NORDO, maybe. But what if you DON'T know?

We recently had 2 - that's TWO - FSDO safety inspectors in an aircraft cross a runway after being specifically told to hold short. And yes, they read it back properly. So ANYONE can have a situation that could include not having one's situational awareness completely in check.
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beechsundowner
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« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2008, 02:05:48 PM »

BTW, don't assume that you'll see the light gun signals just becasue we're using them. Especially during the day. Those guns are OLD, and the bulbs and/or reflectors aren't the best. Also, the next time you're taxiing, really pay attention to how much time you spend watching the tower for a light gun signal. If you KNOW you're NORDO, maybe. But what if you DON'T know?

It sounds like the FAA needs to get training up to speed with lightguns or get updated light guns but that is a whole topic on it's own....

If I don't know I am nordo after leaving the non movement, then obviously I would be adhering to any taxi clearance given, and I would expect the controller to expect that if I don't respond keeping ground traffic clear of my clearance. 

I also suspect I would find out I am NORDO once I am ready to contact tower for departure.  Of course, this would be the tricky part on my end on what to do next since my clearance was only to the departure runway.

I have encountered two situations where I was "partially nordo" once after departing my own non controlled airport and at KJAN.  Both situations were where I could here, but could not transmit.

For the departure situation, I switched the headset jacks to the passenger side and that fixed my problem with COMS until I got to Daytona where I got the PTT fixed.

Second situation, I used the IDENT feature to ground to alert them that I was having a problem and they acknowledge after IDENTING a few times and I was able to communicate I needed to get back to the ramp.   So NORDO does take some ingenuity in using all tools.

Allen
Aviation videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/BeechSundowner
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NatcaDog
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« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2008, 08:26:37 PM »

It sounds like the FAA needs to get training up to speed with lightguns or get updated light guns but that is a whole topic on it's own....

Yes, it is wink  But it's not the training, it's the ability of pilots to see them, especially during the day.

If I don't know I am nordo after leaving the non movement, then obviously I would be adhering to any taxi clearance given, and I would expect the controller to expect that if I don't respond keeping ground traffic clear of my clearance. 

Ah...when you say that you would "obviously" "be adhering to any taxi clearance given," is where some people fall into the trap. Are you saying that you would NEVER make a mistake during a taxi? Of course not - mistakes happen. We're ALL human. Remember the two FSDO inspectors? And when, not if, but when that mistake happens, we have to fix the problem. Maybe traffic WAS being kept clear of your assigned route, but since a Mistake was made, that same traffic is now in conflict with you. So, one way to try and fix the problem may require you to stop or turn, which may be hard to do if you are NORDO. And this happens A LOT!!! Again, it's just one of many tools we have.

I also suspect I would find out I am NORDO once I am ready to contact tower for departure.  Of course, this would be the tricky part on my end on what to do next since my clearance was only to the departure runway.

And this happens A LOT also.

Second situation, I used the IDENT feature to ground to alert them that I was having a problem and they acknowledge after IDENTING a few times and I was able to communicate I needed to get back to the ramp.   So NORDO does take some ingenuity in using all tools.

What happens when you are at an airport that DOESN'T have ground radar, which is the majority of them, by the way?

I'm not trying to pick you apart here, just showing that there are MANY situations that we deal with everyday, and that we have to use ALL the available tools we have to make some things work. Unfortunately, as long as there are mechanical and electrical components involved, and imperfect humans working with that equipment, situations like this are going to happen.
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