Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
September 22, 2014, 06:20:56 PM
Home Help Login Register      
News: LiveATC.net Flyers Released!  Please click here to download & print a copy and be sure to post at an airport near you!


+  LiveATC Discussion Forums
|-+  Air Traffic Monitoring
| |-+  Listener Forum (Moderators: dave, RonR)
| | |-+  *Air France jet missing over Atlantic*
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 10 Go Down Print
Author Topic: *Air France jet missing over Atlantic*  (Read 53007 times)
NAplaya16-ATC
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 151


« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2009, 12:24:07 AM »

i can only conclude that this plane is definitely in the atlantic ocean somewhere// if this plane had indeed made it to africa, now i dont know the exact geography over there, like if they woulda been flyin over a desert or something like that, but if they did make it to africa, i dont know how someone wouldnt have noticed an airplane goin down or descending at a rapid rate.

i hope im makin sense here.

-NAplaya
Logged
laylow
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 124


« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2009, 12:25:38 AM »

i can only conclude that this plane is definitely in the atlantic ocean somewhere// if this plane had indeed made it to africa, now i dont know the exact geography over there, like if they woulda been flyin over a desert or something like that, but if they did make it to africa, i dont know how someone wouldnt have noticed an airplane goin down or descending at a rapid rate.

i hope im makin sense here.

-NAplaya

I think it's possible they crashed in Africa, but not likely.  Much of Africa is empty, it might have been missed.  Hell, even if someone in Africa saw, how, and to whom, would they report it? Could've been seen by people with no means of swift communication.
Logged
Saabeba
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 71


« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2009, 12:31:17 AM »

I am interested in flight reports from other flights that night in the vicinity.

Disabling lightning strike then turbulence is a logical explanation, but I am still a little unsure if lightning could disable a plane this new.  And not one May Day.

Logged
tyketto
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 913


« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2009, 01:44:13 AM »

i can only conclude that this plane is definitely in the atlantic ocean somewhere// if this plane had indeed made it to africa, now i dont know the exact geography over there, like if they woulda been flyin over a desert or something like that, but if they did make it to africa, i dont know how someone wouldnt have noticed an airplane goin down or descending at a rapid rate.

i hope im makin sense here.

-NAplaya

I think it's possible they crashed in Africa, but not likely.  Much of Africa is empty, it might have been missed.  Hell, even if someone in Africa saw, how, and to whom, would they report it? Could've been seen by people with no means of swift communication.

There was an article in March's edition of Airways Magazine about a routine flight from the Persian Gulf to Lagos, Nigeria, and on that route, because of the lack of ATC coverage between Lagos and Cairo, they were using position reporting, like SELCAL. Only time they had ATC coverage was when contacting Lagos Tower. So they would definitely be missed over Africa. But this is why I was asking about GVAC, in the Cape Verde islands in relation to the Air Transat incident where the TSC A330 ran out of fuel. They were able to glide all the way down and make it. But from Brazil, it looks to be about a 3 hour flight from SBRF to GVAC. From FL350, wouldn't that be an airport they could make? I'm using Recife as the eastern most airport in mainland Brazil, seeing that it's close to the last point the flight reported.

BL.
Logged
kea001
Guest
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2009, 05:38:25 AM »

from Wikipedia:

The last verbal contact with the aircraft was at 01:33 UTC, when it was near waypoint INTOL (1°21′39″S 32°49′53″W) located 565 kilometres (351 mi) off Brazil's north-eastern coast. The crew reported that they expected to enter Senegalese-controlled airspace at waypoint TASIL (4°0′18″N 29°59′24″W) within 50 minutes, and that the aircraft was flying normally at an altitude of 35,000 feet (11,000 m) and a speed of 840 kilometres per hour (450 kn). The aircraft left Brazil Atlantic radar surveillance at 01:48 UTC. The last contact with the aircraft was at 02:14 UTC, four hours after take-off, when up to a dozen automatic ACARS messages indicated faults in various electrical systems and also a possible pressurization problem. According to Air France CEO Pierre-Henri Gourgeon these faults created a "totally unprecedented situation in the plane".At that time, the assumed location of the aircraft was about 100 kilometres (54 nmi) from the waypoint TASIL, assuming that the flight had been proceeding as planned.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447




from:
Air France Flight 447
A detailed meteorological analysis

by Tim Vasquez
http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/


attached:
South Atlantic Crossing Chart:
from:http://www.planningcharts.de/

http://www.planningchart.de/South-Atlantic.gif
« Last Edit: June 02, 2009, 06:08:34 AM by kea001 » Logged
joeyb747
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1583


Nothing Like A 747!


« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2009, 06:38:15 AM »

Here is an interesting bit...

"Brazil's largest airline, TAM, released a statement late Monday saying that pilots flying one of its commercial flights from Paris to Rio spotted what they thought was fire in the ocean along the Air France jet's route."

From story below:

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20090601/Brazil.Plane/
Logged

Aircraft Mechanic
atcman23
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 367



« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2009, 07:55:38 AM »

Does anyone know if was a fault with the ADIRU / ADIRS ?
and was it made by Northrop Grumman ?

Did the crew and passengers lose consciousness ?

If you ask me, it sounds like someone is trying to speculate on a particular part made by Northrop Grumman.  As of right now, nobody knows any of that information and it won't be known for some time.  As for the crew and passengers, we don't know that either.  While there was a report that an automated message sent from the aircraft said there might be a possible pressurization problem, we do not know to what extent, and whether or not this was actually the case.  In the event of a pressurization problem, the overhead air masks would drop out to passengers and the crew would don their masks.  It's not likely they lost consciousness if any sort of pressurization problem occurred, whether it was minor or explosive decompression.  Usually, the accident investigation does not focus on what happened to the crew/passengers, so we'll likely never know.

Right now, it looks like the big focus is locating this aircraft.  There is a large area they are looking at searching and they really need to narrow that down. 

As for the Air Transat flight someone mentioned, that was a completely different scenario.  The crew didn't have to deal with any sort of weather issues.  Also, their problem was caused by a mechanic using the wrong part on an engine's fuel line, resulting in the aircraft dumping fuel through the engine and the crew's lack of training on the new glass cockpit.  In this situation with the Air France flight, it sounds like this aircraft was disabled in some fashion, whether lightning actually did disable the aircraft or of the aircraft hit severe or even extreme turbulence.  If they were in severe/extreme turbulence long enough, the aircraft may have become stressed and it is possible that one of it's surfaces failed.  Given the fact that the aircraft was flying through thunderstorms, I would say it's going to be more than one issue that brought this aircraft down, as tends to be the case with these large accidents.  With no mayday call, it's likely this aircraft went down quick.  Of course, if the crew had to put full attention towards flying the aircraft, the may day call would only come when they had a chance.  The big rule is "aviate, navigate, communicate" so communication would have come later as flying the aircraft is, of course, top priority.
Logged

Mark Spencer
vianded
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6


« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2009, 09:07:24 AM »

fox news just reported that what could be wreckage was found. lets see... but I have a few questions in regards to transatlantic flights... I heard some reports saying that the plane was exposed to severe turbulence for a long time... is it possible for the pilot to just try to get out of by climbing or getting off course? if they are under no atc can you just go up or go around it?
Logged
sykocus
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 349



« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2009, 10:26:52 AM »

is it possible for the pilot to just try to get out of by climbing or getting off course? if they are under no atc can you just go up or go around it?

They would need to get permission to deviate from their flight path. I think there may be some confusion caused by the media or the way some post have been written here. While there there isn't much in the way of radar coverage over the ocean, that doesn't mean that planes aren't under air traffic control. There are rules and procedures for separating aircraft over the ocean. The aircraft make position reports via high frequency radio or satellite communication for controllers to keep track of the different flights and make sure they stay separated from any traffic ahead, behind or even on crossing paths.
Logged

Yesterday I couldn't spell air traffic controller. Today I R one.
Timfish
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2


« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2009, 02:09:03 PM »

It was stated  on FOX News  On-line that the Air Search teams spotted 2  separate debris fields 35 miles apart .  Can the  ocean currents separate  debris that effectively  in 24 hours ? Or does this indicate a  possible partial  break-up of the aircraft  mid-air due to extreme flight condidtions or a catastrophic  malfunction  from Lightning ?

From Fox News :

Military pilots spotted two areas of floating debris about 35 miles apart, 410 miles beyond the Brazilian island of Fernando de Noronha, which was located roughly along Flight 447's path from Rio de Janeiro to Paris, air force spokesman Jorge Amaral said.

"The locations where the objects were found are toward the right of the point where the last signal of the plane was emitted," Amaral said. "That suggests that it might have tried to make a turn, maybe to return to Fernando de Noronha, but that is just a hypothesis."
Logged
SooLineRob
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 12


« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2009, 02:30:03 PM »

Brief synopsis from various sources as of 6/2/09, 12:40 CDT:

No voice message was received from AF447 indicating trouble.

PIREPS (PIlot REPorts) and passenger comments from other aircraft ahead of, and behind, AF447 indicated light to moderate turbulence while transitting the area of thunderstorms where AF447 went missing/failed to check in with a postion report. The weather conditions were "normal" for this region.

A Brazil-bound TAM flight observed "orange light(s) on the ocean surface" near where AF447 went missing, but was unaware the flight was missing until after their arrival in Brazil. Although the sighting was reported, it was done so from memory and somewhat vague as to the exact position. The TAM flight observed the "light(s)" about 30 minutes after AF447 went "missing", and along the planned route.

Automated ACARS messages received from AF447 began about 02:10Z; AutoPilot disengaged, Alternate Law flight mode.

02:11Z to 02:13Z, multiple faults regarding ADIRU (Air Data and Inertial Reference Unit) and ISIS (Integrated Standby Intsruments System).

02:13Z PRIM 1 (PRImary) and SEC 1 (SECondary) computer faults.

02:14Z Cabin vertical speed advisory, last message recieved.

Reports from Brazilian Navy indicate two differnet sightings of debris about 30-60nm apart, including a "drum", orange throwable life preserverer/flotation device, "seat(s)", and oil/kerosene on water surface. Due to the multiple different languages and sources involved, the use of quotation marks indicate the "translation" into English. These sightings are in the general area where the TAM flight observed "orange light(s) on the surface".

Due to the location, helicopters are unable to reach the sights. Fixed wing aircraft are coordinating the search with ships, both naval and merchant, to search the areas.

Please excuse any non-standard phraseology contained herein; I'm not a part of the aviation community. I've been following this tragic story over the last day, and have posted only the known "facts" that I've received from various media sources, for those of us "just tuning in" to this developing tragedy.
Logged
Timfish
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2


« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2009, 03:27:48 PM »

While reading around the Net I found this post :

The following text is quote from PPRuNe Forums. (Professional Pilots Rumour Network)



I read somewhere that Air France 447's wing touched an A320 rudder in a taxi incident prior to departure. The A320's rudder was severely damaged, but AF447's A330 wingtip was not. AF447 departed, and is now missing.

First things first: Did the taxi incident occur?

Answers to big problems or issues are often simple. Here is one possibility: AF447's wing was weakened if not visibly damaged; the airplane suffered stresses during flight via flight in turbulence; the damaged, stressed wing broke off; the airplane plummeted into the sea.

What supports this?

1. Alleged taxi incident involving A320 and AF447.
2. Alleged time delay of four minutes from altitude to impact.
3. No calls from the pilots.
4. Sudden spurt of messages sent to base: multiple system failures.
5. Item 3. and 4. indicate an inflight breakup.
6. Airplanes don't fall out of the sky for no reason.


If this is true there seems to be an incident report  written-up on this and will be revealed   to the media
Logged
kea001
Guest
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2009, 04:19:45 PM »

First things first: Did the taxi incident occur?

What happened to Flight 447?

By Miles O'Brien

"The airplane that crashed last night - tail number F-GZCP - had no accidents or incidents in its history. It went into service on April 18, 2005 and had logged 18,870 hours. In 2006, its wing collided with the tail of an Airbus A321 on the ground at Charles de Gaulle Airport - the damage was classified as "minor". It was last in the hangar on April 16, 2009 for routine maintenance. No serious squawks reported."
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5505BF20090602


SIDEBAR:

Brazilian media confirms the names of the vessels providing assistance are the:

Lexa Maersk, last reported (UTC), 2009-Jun-02 1200
Jo Cedar, 2009-Jun-02 0000,
UAL Texas, 2009-Jun-02 0000,
Stolt Inspiration Huh
with the farthest just 72 kilometers (45 miles) from the crash site.

http://gcaptain.com/maritime/blog/air-france-flight-447-commercial/




from: sailwx.info
http://www.sailwx.info/shiptrack/shiplocations.phtml
« Last Edit: June 02, 2009, 04:51:06 PM by kea001 » Logged
joeyb747
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1583


Nothing Like A 747!


« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2009, 06:52:45 PM »

"Brazil confirms Air France jet crashed in ocean
FERNANDO DE NORONHA, Brazil — Brazilian military planes found a 3-mile (5-kilometer) path of wreckage in the Atlantic Ocean, confirming that an Air France jet carrying 228 people crashed in the sea, Defense Minister Nelson Jobim said Tuesday."

From story below:

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20090601/Brazil.Plane/

Timfish may be on to something here...I am inclined to agree that the incident with the A320 had something to do with it.

The problem is we may never know... cry
Logged

Aircraft Mechanic
joeyb747
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1583


Nothing Like A 747!


« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2009, 06:57:34 PM »

Here is a pic of the ill-fated A330-203...God Rest Their Souls...

Airbus A330-203 F-GZCP (cn 660) landing at Paris - Charles de Gaulle (Roissy) (CDG / LFPG)
on May 4, 2008.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Air-France/Airbus-A330-203/1371474/L/&sid=1928ad3104946f283a1b90e0469750cc
Logged

Aircraft Mechanic
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 10 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2011, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!