Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
September 26, 2016, 01:38:03 AM
Home Help Login Register      
News: No coverage in your area? If you are near your local airport contact us to learn about becoming a volunteer


+  LiveATC Discussion Forums
|-+  Air Traffic Monitoring
| |-+  Listener Forum (Moderators: dave, RonR)
| | |-+  *Air France jet missing over Atlantic*
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6 Go Down Print
Author Topic: *Air France jet missing over Atlantic*  (Read 78875 times)
leavinonajetplane
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 17



WWW
« on: June 01, 2009, 06:09:12 AM »

CNN breaking news reports, "Air France jet bound for Paris from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, with 216 aboard, missing over Atlantic, airline confirms."

Very sad.  God bless those passengers and their families in what sounds to be a tragic event.
Logged

leavinonajetplane
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 17



WWW
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2009, 06:20:15 AM »

CNN breaking news reports, "Air France jet bound for Paris from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, with 216 aboard, missing over Atlantic, airline confirms."

Very sad.  God bless those passengers and their families in what sounds to be a tragic event.

Since my post, CNN has posted more:

A French passenger aircraft carrying 228 people has disappeared from radar off the coast of Brazil, airline officials say.  Air France told CNN the jet was traveling from Rio de Janeiro to Charles de Gaulle airport in Paris when it vanished.

The airline said flight AF447 was carrying 216 passengers in addition to a crew of 12.

French state radio reported a crisis center was being set up at Charles de Galle where the plane had been due to land at 11.15 a.m. local time.

Airport officials in Rio declined to comment on the incident.
Logged

kea001
Guest
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2009, 07:14:55 AM »

TIMES ONLINE
  • Air traffic controllers lost contact with the Airbus A330-200 at 0600 GMT, eight hours after it took off from Rio de Janeiro bound for Charles de Gaulle airport in Paris.
  • The aircraft was due to arrive in Paris at 11.10 am (0910GMT), which means that it would have been approaching the coast of North Africa or Spain when it lost contact.
  • The aircraft in question, tail number F-GZCP, came into service in February 2005.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6404837.ece

However, CNN is reporting:
Brazil's air force launched a search near the archipelago of Fernando de Noronha in the Atlantic Ocean, 365 km (226 miles) from Brazil's coast, the country's state media said.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/06/01/air.france.brazil/index.html

REUTERS
"Air France said on Monday a plane that went missing on the way from Brazil to Paris had sent a message at 0214 GMT reporting an electrical short-circuit, after it had flown through a stormy area with strong turbulence."
http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSPAB00482020090601

Now REUTERS reporting:
"The last radar contact with an Air France jet missing with 228 people on board was at 10:33 p.m. on Sunday/0133 GMT on Monday after it had flown past islands off Brazil's northern coast, Brazil's air force said."


I also find it hard to believe anyone, as a CNN 'expert' suggests, could land an A330 in 8-12 foot ocean swells.

BBC News:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8077437.stm

You can see a weather radar photo at Aviation Herald:
http://avherald.com/h?article=41a81ef1&opt=1


« Last Edit: June 01, 2009, 10:10:36 AM by kea001 » Logged
atcman23
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 367



« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2009, 08:00:23 AM »

Well, that is interesting!  We can't exactly search the entire Atlantic for an aircraft.  I think someone needs a review of non-radar procedures.  There is certainly a big question as to where this aircraft was since CNN and the UK media are reporting two completely different things.  From the UK article posted, they are already speculating on how the plane disappeared.  It's not exactly what you want to read right now; it'll likely take years before we know anything about this aircraft.  It took quite some time to figure out the EgyptAir crash in the late 1990s.

It is a shame though.  The "Today" show compared this aircraft to the A320 and then went right into the Hudson River landing.  The A320 and A330 are two completely aircraft, with the -330 being MUCH bigger (it is a "heavy") and it's not likely the pilot was able to land this aircraft on the water, especially since there was no distress call.
Logged

Mark Spencer
oceano
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1


« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2009, 08:22:12 AM »

This  AF 447 should have landed in CDG at 1110 (0910 GMT) with
216 passengers n 12 crew members
!!!
Logged
SweedChef
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 45


« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2009, 08:32:06 AM »

News reports 'lost radar', but isn't that going to happen anyway? Thus the reports that they the plane didn't arrive.

CBC reported this morning that the plane didn't arrive as expected. So I assumed the incident happened anywhere in the Atlantic.
Logged
celius
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1


« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2009, 12:32:13 PM »

Not enough information to make any reasoned guess as to what may have happened other than teh "automated" messages as to turbulence and a possible electrical failure.  Hard to beleive that a lightning strike disabled the plane, if it was indeed cruising at 35,000 feet, so it had to be a catastrophic event such as a major turbulance hit which caused immediate catastropic wing failure or an on-board explosion, or, mid-air collision........This one will not be solved unless they are able to locate wreakage of some kind and/or recover the black boxes somehow.  I'm sure that authorities will scour the passenger lists and cargo list to determine if the plane was carrying any questionable passengers, or, hazardous/explosive cargo of any kind.   
Logged
tyketto
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 972


« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2009, 12:37:25 PM »

News reports 'lost radar', but isn't that going to happen anyway? Thus the reports that they the plane didn't arrive.

CBC reported this morning that the plane didn't arrive as expected. So I assumed the incident happened anywhere in the Atlantic.

Or anywhere over Africa for that matter, except for over/around GVAC, which does have radar services. When they left Brazilian airspace, they're doing the position reports like how things are done over Gander/Shanwick Control for crossing the northern Atlantic. Seems to correspond with what has happened. SBRF control loses contact with the flight, scrambles some jets to look for it, they don't find it, when they leave Brazilian airspace, they are left with using position reports and ETA of reaching a given point (just like everywhere else in the world). That gives them not only their exact route, but a much narrower area to search (give/take 3 - 5 nm or however wide the airway is if they are on an airway).

Luckily, point #3 is near GVAC, so that does give them a chance..

BL.
Logged
EdGeneer
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 79



« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2009, 01:24:33 PM »

Im sure I am an idiot for thinking this, but if we have gps in our cars so the police and write us tickets for having unreproted accidents, why arent there gps tracking devices in aircraft, especially trans atlantic flights. I realize that trans atlantic flights dont utilize the same communication techniques as over-land handoffs, etc. but it seems to me its somewhat rediculous that they have NO idea where this plane lost electrical power/contact.

I can put a gps in my car for a few hundred dolars, but trans atlantic flights are still using compass, sextants and a 'see ya on the other side'Huh?

This from the industry that wants to shorten the already dense 2min separation to relieve congestion....  perhaps im answering my own question here....
Logged

atcman23
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 367



« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2009, 01:40:23 PM »

Eventually that is the plan and is part of the NextGen ATC improvements.  Overseas flights have a much higher separation rate depending on altitude and direction of travel.
Logged

Mark Spencer
dave
Site Founder
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4082



WWW
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2009, 02:07:54 PM »

Comments from Miles O'Brien (former CNN reporter and avid pilot)
Logged
joeyb747
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1623


Nothing Like A 747!


« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2009, 04:08:46 PM »

From my ISP:

http://www4.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20090601/NEWS-US-FRANCE-PLANE/

"But about 4:15 a.m. Paris time, Flight 447's automatic system began a four-minute exchange of messages to the company's maintenance computers, indicating that "several pieces of aircraft equipment were at fault or had broken down," he said."

From story below:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/06/01/air.france.brazil/

Truly sad... cry
Logged

Aircraft Mechanic
niteflite
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1


« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2009, 05:03:33 PM »

We left Sao Paulo Guarulhos bound for Madrid Barajas, about three hours before the 477 left Rio.  I did not realize bad weather on this route, probably more west of the Air France Route, I think, our Iberia IB 6824 used the UN866. Seems like the AF477 used the UN857 routing via Fernando de Noronja. Is here anyone that spotted the routings of "our" Iberia-flight?? Any response is appreciated...
Logged
kea001
Guest
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2009, 07:50:15 PM »

Any response is appreciated...

I understand your question but the only source I know for flight plan data of previous flights is flightaware and they only do flights that originate or end in North America.



I just saw a post on a forum that said these anomalies that get transmitted from the plane to the main computer can then be forwarded to the maintenance manager's blackberry so that by the time the jet arrives at it's destination, there's already a technician ready to take a look.

Of course this plan of action, which is commendable,  has less to do with the customer and more to do with expediting maintenance to keep the plane generating revenue.

To contrast, it looks as if there was a lag of at least a few hours between the disappearance of the flight and the activation of the search and rescue and another lag in time between Air France communicating to the Brazilian Military the data information they received via computer.  Just another example of how the customer gets the shaft.

Once the client is out of the revenue stream, the wheels stop turning.  evil
« Last Edit: June 01, 2009, 07:54:37 PM by kea001 » Logged
blavatsky3
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 8


« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2009, 08:41:59 PM »

Does anyone know if was a fault with the ADIRU / ADIRS ?
and was it made by Northrop Grumman ?

Did the crew and passengers lose consciousness ?
Logged
NAplaya16-ATC
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 151


« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2009, 12:24:07 AM »

i can only conclude that this plane is definitely in the atlantic ocean somewhere// if this plane had indeed made it to africa, now i dont know the exact geography over there, like if they woulda been flyin over a desert or something like that, but if they did make it to africa, i dont know how someone wouldnt have noticed an airplane goin down or descending at a rapid rate.

i hope im makin sense here.

-NAplaya
Logged
laylow
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 125


« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2009, 12:25:38 AM »

i can only conclude that this plane is definitely in the atlantic ocean somewhere// if this plane had indeed made it to africa, now i dont know the exact geography over there, like if they woulda been flyin over a desert or something like that, but if they did make it to africa, i dont know how someone wouldnt have noticed an airplane goin down or descending at a rapid rate.

i hope im makin sense here.

-NAplaya

I think it's possible they crashed in Africa, but not likely.  Much of Africa is empty, it might have been missed.  Hell, even if someone in Africa saw, how, and to whom, would they report it? Could've been seen by people with no means of swift communication.
Logged
Saabeba
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 71


« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2009, 12:31:17 AM »

I am interested in flight reports from other flights that night in the vicinity.

Disabling lightning strike then turbulence is a logical explanation, but I am still a little unsure if lightning could disable a plane this new.  And not one May Day.

Logged
tyketto
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 972


« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2009, 01:44:13 AM »

i can only conclude that this plane is definitely in the atlantic ocean somewhere// if this plane had indeed made it to africa, now i dont know the exact geography over there, like if they woulda been flyin over a desert or something like that, but if they did make it to africa, i dont know how someone wouldnt have noticed an airplane goin down or descending at a rapid rate.

i hope im makin sense here.

-NAplaya

I think it's possible they crashed in Africa, but not likely.  Much of Africa is empty, it might have been missed.  Hell, even if someone in Africa saw, how, and to whom, would they report it? Could've been seen by people with no means of swift communication.

There was an article in March's edition of Airways Magazine about a routine flight from the Persian Gulf to Lagos, Nigeria, and on that route, because of the lack of ATC coverage between Lagos and Cairo, they were using position reporting, like SELCAL. Only time they had ATC coverage was when contacting Lagos Tower. So they would definitely be missed over Africa. But this is why I was asking about GVAC, in the Cape Verde islands in relation to the Air Transat incident where the TSC A330 ran out of fuel. They were able to glide all the way down and make it. But from Brazil, it looks to be about a 3 hour flight from SBRF to GVAC. From FL350, wouldn't that be an airport they could make? I'm using Recife as the eastern most airport in mainland Brazil, seeing that it's close to the last point the flight reported.

BL.
Logged
kea001
Guest
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2009, 05:38:25 AM »

from Wikipedia:

The last verbal contact with the aircraft was at 01:33 UTC, when it was near waypoint INTOL (1°21′39″S 32°49′53″W) located 565 kilometres (351 mi) off Brazil's north-eastern coast. The crew reported that they expected to enter Senegalese-controlled airspace at waypoint TASIL (4°0′18″N 29°59′24″W) within 50 minutes, and that the aircraft was flying normally at an altitude of 35,000 feet (11,000 m) and a speed of 840 kilometres per hour (450 kn). The aircraft left Brazil Atlantic radar surveillance at 01:48 UTC. The last contact with the aircraft was at 02:14 UTC, four hours after take-off, when up to a dozen automatic ACARS messages indicated faults in various electrical systems and also a possible pressurization problem. According to Air France CEO Pierre-Henri Gourgeon these faults created a "totally unprecedented situation in the plane".At that time, the assumed location of the aircraft was about 100 kilometres (54 nmi) from the waypoint TASIL, assuming that the flight had been proceeding as planned.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447




from:
Air France Flight 447
A detailed meteorological analysis

by Tim Vasquez
http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/


attached:
South Atlantic Crossing Chart:
from:http://www.planningcharts.de/

http://www.planningchart.de/South-Atlantic.gif
« Last Edit: June 02, 2009, 06:08:34 AM by kea001 » Logged
joeyb747
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1623


Nothing Like A 747!


« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2009, 06:38:15 AM »

Here is an interesting bit...

"Brazil's largest airline, TAM, released a statement late Monday saying that pilots flying one of its commercial flights from Paris to Rio spotted what they thought was fire in the ocean along the Air France jet's route."

From story below:

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20090601/Brazil.Plane/
Logged

Aircraft Mechanic
atcman23
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 367



« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2009, 07:55:38 AM »

Does anyone know if was a fault with the ADIRU / ADIRS ?
and was it made by Northrop Grumman ?

Did the crew and passengers lose consciousness ?

If you ask me, it sounds like someone is trying to speculate on a particular part made by Northrop Grumman.  As of right now, nobody knows any of that information and it won't be known for some time.  As for the crew and passengers, we don't know that either.  While there was a report that an automated message sent from the aircraft said there might be a possible pressurization problem, we do not know to what extent, and whether or not this was actually the case.  In the event of a pressurization problem, the overhead air masks would drop out to passengers and the crew would don their masks.  It's not likely they lost consciousness if any sort of pressurization problem occurred, whether it was minor or explosive decompression.  Usually, the accident investigation does not focus on what happened to the crew/passengers, so we'll likely never know.

Right now, it looks like the big focus is locating this aircraft.  There is a large area they are looking at searching and they really need to narrow that down. 

As for the Air Transat flight someone mentioned, that was a completely different scenario.  The crew didn't have to deal with any sort of weather issues.  Also, their problem was caused by a mechanic using the wrong part on an engine's fuel line, resulting in the aircraft dumping fuel through the engine and the crew's lack of training on the new glass cockpit.  In this situation with the Air France flight, it sounds like this aircraft was disabled in some fashion, whether lightning actually did disable the aircraft or of the aircraft hit severe or even extreme turbulence.  If they were in severe/extreme turbulence long enough, the aircraft may have become stressed and it is possible that one of it's surfaces failed.  Given the fact that the aircraft was flying through thunderstorms, I would say it's going to be more than one issue that brought this aircraft down, as tends to be the case with these large accidents.  With no mayday call, it's likely this aircraft went down quick.  Of course, if the crew had to put full attention towards flying the aircraft, the may day call would only come when they had a chance.  The big rule is "aviate, navigate, communicate" so communication would have come later as flying the aircraft is, of course, top priority.
Logged

Mark Spencer
vianded
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6


« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2009, 09:07:24 AM »

fox news just reported that what could be wreckage was found. lets see... but I have a few questions in regards to transatlantic flights... I heard some reports saying that the plane was exposed to severe turbulence for a long time... is it possible for the pilot to just try to get out of by climbing or getting off course? if they are under no atc can you just go up or go around it?
Logged
sykocus
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 349



« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2009, 10:26:52 AM »

is it possible for the pilot to just try to get out of by climbing or getting off course? if they are under no atc can you just go up or go around it?

They would need to get permission to deviate from their flight path. I think there may be some confusion caused by the media or the way some post have been written here. While there there isn't much in the way of radar coverage over the ocean, that doesn't mean that planes aren't under air traffic control. There are rules and procedures for separating aircraft over the ocean. The aircraft make position reports via high frequency radio or satellite communication for controllers to keep track of the different flights and make sure they stay separated from any traffic ahead, behind or even on crossing paths.
Logged

Yesterday I couldn't spell air traffic controller. Today I R one.
Timfish
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2


« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2009, 02:09:03 PM »

It was stated  on FOX News  On-line that the Air Search teams spotted 2  separate debris fields 35 miles apart .  Can the  ocean currents separate  debris that effectively  in 24 hours ? Or does this indicate a  possible partial  break-up of the aircraft  mid-air due to extreme flight condidtions or a catastrophic  malfunction  from Lightning ?

From Fox News :

Military pilots spotted two areas of floating debris about 35 miles apart, 410 miles beyond the Brazilian island of Fernando de Noronha, which was located roughly along Flight 447's path from Rio de Janeiro to Paris, air force spokesman Jorge Amaral said.

"The locations where the objects were found are toward the right of the point where the last signal of the plane was emitted," Amaral said. "That suggests that it might have tried to make a turn, maybe to return to Fernando de Noronha, but that is just a hypothesis."
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!