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| | |-+  A word to the wise regarding "Fan clubs" PLEEEASE READ!
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Author Topic: A word to the wise regarding "Fan clubs" PLEEEASE READ!  (Read 11386 times)
EivlEvo
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« on: April 05, 2007, 11:07:26 AM »

Dear friends at LiveATC. I am writing this to make a heartfelt suggestion that we PLEAAAAAAAAASE stop putting controllers on a pedestal in the manner in which we regard the controllers such as "Boston John" and "JFK Arnie". I truly truly LOVE their controlling styles and I LOVE this website and all that it stands for but as a pilot I can tell you that the last thing these individuals need is a fan base. I'm not saying that we should stop posting their clips or stop making comments about how great they are. But I DO suggest that we stop attempting to find out names, inform them that they have a fan base, or do ANYTHING other than listen. Im sure as Air Traffic Controllers they are MORE than aware of this website and may or may not frequent it. But I feel like this is one of those situations that the FAA or more specifically the general public would love to stumble upon and get extremely fired up with. The current direction that general aviation is taking is fantastic however in the public's eye GA is seen as a niussance that needs more strict governing. I feel while very few individuals posting on here are pilots (more than likely because they would much rather not be affiliated with ATC as though it is a radio show) I would highly recommend that we as members of this great site take the necessary action to keep it as much a learning tool and nothing else as possible.

With that said... allow me to briefly reiterate.

Listen. Love. Learn.

Try not to make it anything more than what it is. Good ATC or bad ATC.

Sincerely hoping LIVEATC isn't about to check itself into extinction.
~DAVE
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JetScan1
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« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2007, 12:19:01 PM »

I strongly agree, the posting of personal information like controllers names is totally inappropriate. It's an invasion of privacy, these people are at work, not on the air for your personal entertainment. This service is a great resource to learn about ATC and procedures, hopefully that will continue to be the focus, and not turn into some sort of twisted aeronautical version of the WWE. DJ
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United B-777
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« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2007, 12:37:19 PM »

Wow! Great post! I currently live in Germany (US-citizen though) and here it is strictly forbidden to listen to any ATC communications. You can be sentenced to up to two years of jail for doing so! shocked
I would find it VERY sad if the same happened in the USA. Let us enjoy the clips and the controllers! We should not make any kind of hype out of it however.

As the original poster said: Enjoy and/or learn! For me, this site has been very helpful! I am a glider pilot and airline pilot wannabe. I  strongly believe that I can be very good in my ATC skills once I start my career because of having the experience of listening to communications for hours. Other pilots would probably have more problems!

I am very grateful this site exists, but we should use it appropriatly.

Best wishes and clear skies to all of you
-J. (United B-777)
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KPryor
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« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2007, 01:20:25 PM »

Totally agree.  No offense intended to anyone, but this whole fanclub/fanpage thing is really getting silly.  These guys are just private citizens who go to work every day and do their jobs.  They are not public persons, such as movie stars, music people, what have you and I doubt they want fan pages, etc. any more than I would for doing my job.
Let it go with enjoying the opportunity to listen to them and discussion here in the forums.  Anything beyond that is just ridiculous.
KP
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seagull
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« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2007, 01:33:25 PM »

Thankyou for the support from the previous four posters.

I’ve been a silent viewer for some time now…so I figure this may be a good time to make a comment.  Some feel this type of site is for educational purposes, others entertainment.  There’s really no harm in both. 

“Would-be” pilots learn ATC & listening skills.  Hobby listeners gain a greater respect for the ATC system as a whole. 

The danger in the online medium is forgetting that this is not a simulation…but the real thing.  With real careers & lives on the line every second.  Because the internet can reach so many, a fan base making contact could be very overwhelming to any controller. 

Enjoy the site, thank-you to frequency posters and remember…listening is a one way road!

Regards
Air Traffic Controller
(I’m sure you’ll understand if I do not sign a name or initials for obvious reasons)
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EivlEvo
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« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2007, 01:47:09 PM »

Im glad this post is getting out a little in just a short time. I was hoping I wasn't going to be the only one thinking this.

Anyways, as the original poster just to clarify, I absolutely 100% mean NO OFFENSE to anyone and this was not brought on by any one poster or even a group of posters but more the latest flurry of posts regarding the "famous controllers" as though they are radio personalities rather than people working.

A great example that made me CRINGE was the JetBlue pilot. I have no IDEA what he was thinking making a comment like that on the freq's let alone on JFK's freq.

But yeah... well.... yeah.

~DAVE
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KASWspotter
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« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2007, 02:30:43 PM »

Well I dont think the Jetblue radio call was that bad. But if a bunch of fan sites start popping up then I might be a little leary if I was a controller. I agree with you 100% though. This should be the only fan site devoted to ANY controller.
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Towerboss
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« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2007, 03:05:15 PM »

seagull

I agree with you 100%.

Sincerely,
Also an Air Traffic Controller.
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tyketto
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« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2007, 03:28:45 PM »

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate for a bit, so please, just roll with me for a bit. Smiley

As far as ATC anonymity, I have no issue with that. You guys are out there doing a great job, and nothing should take you away from that; even fame. But please don't get the lot of us wrong here; we didn't ask or probe for John's or Arnie's name or anything like that whatsoever. There have been articles, interviews done by the media, etc., which have exposed (lack of a better word) them to the public, and put them in that spotlight. Their names became public from that, and not from anything that LiveATC has done.

I do have to say that some of you controllers do actually deserve to be put on a pedestal. For aviation buffs, you guys are the proverbial role model; highly unlike those in follywood who get beglamoured up to be something they're not. You do deserve praise and edifications for the work you do; is there really anything wrong with (properly) learning a controller's name, just to say thank you?

As far as fansites go, there's a very fine line between fan and fanatic*. The latter, and putting up a site about that person basically indicatesthat that person has a reputation that they have to live up to. That is a huge burden on someone to keep up, on top of the stress they already have on the job. Would anyone really want to give someone that?

Names aside, I don't really see a problem if you signed your operating initials. At the very least, if there is a feed in your area, we would know that "this person is a damn good controller", and more people would want to listen to you do what you do best: control, without any burden of needing to impress someone or please an audience. But I don't think there is anything you need to be scared or worried of with the audience you have here. We all should have enough common sense to not do anything that borders on fanaticism.

BL.

* See the definitions of fan[3] and fanatic at www.m-w.com.

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Check Airman
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« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2007, 05:09:43 PM »

Have to say i agree that a "shout out" would be a bad idea. it would make for a great post, but what will we really gain in the end? i would actually consider this to be unprofessional. As stated earlier, it's an air traffic control frequency. Modern technology should not turn it into a radio station...WJFK on 121.9; for all your favorite hits...

from the ATCO's shoes, if i didn't know about the site and somebody asked me to do that, i'd be very uncomfortable. i'd then go check out the site, and be very self-conscious next time i picked up the radio. do we really want him to be thinking of what a few folks online are going to say about how he does his job. I'd say that is starting to look like the start of a flight safety issue.

i love liveatc, it has taught me a great deal. let's not spoil what we have.

re the Jetblue pilot's comments, that may not have been the smartest move on his part. good thing it wasn't Arnie, but somebody who obviously has some knowledge of the site (and was in a good enough mood to joke about it)
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ogogog
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« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2007, 06:02:47 PM »

amen , its a little creepy at times
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MathFox
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« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2007, 06:22:37 PM »

As a random listener (and frequent flyer) I think that controllers have their prime responsibility in getting the planes around safely and efficiently. And that is teamwork. Arnie and John need their collegues to keep things running smooth.

While I see no problems in addressing controllers by first names or initials, they are no moviestars, just people doing a (hopefully good) job. Controllers should have their privacy off the job.
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EivlEvo
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« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2007, 11:26:36 PM »

Yeah let me throw this out there too. I wholeheartedly agree with what you guys are all getting at. I've been around long enough (even though it says n00b) to know where those names came from. Im not saying I wouldn't love to know what makes a mind like the ones we hear over the freq's on here tick. What I was getting at about the Jetblue chap is that Im sure the ATC guys know we listen. Furthermore, you can pretty much assume that they know people listen to them... Pilots, and there is no doubt that they ham it up a little but one of the very big reasons this occurs is because of the FAR's. I think that ATC has a diff book, but regardless its still going to have the same tags attached to it. The idea here being, ATC knows that being a pilot can suck ass some days and god damnit all we know that being an ATC is flipping impossible almost 100% of the time. They cut us slack and we cut you guys slack. But herein lies the problem....

On here... theres no government. Theres only "general society". This poses the problem because now there are a whole crapload of people who literally have a very high understanding of how to listen to ATC but have VERY little knowledge of rules and regs (no offense... im in a similar boat) so instead of being very jovial and able to say whatever they "feel they can get away with" they're going to think... well, I have a whole bunch of normal citizens listening on the freq's better think before I speak.

The fact that the controller on the com referred back to Arnie just (in my head) goes to show us all that he's trying to defer that as much as possible. Im sure that his superiors don't mind it at the level its been at, where we sit and we listen. But once people start trying to ask questions outside of the normal routes is when people end up with their asses in the pan. Them and us.

The Jetblue pilot didn't do anything "wrong" I mean... Im not scolding him, Im simply saying let them do their controlling and let us do our listening. Keep in mind how fast General Aviation is going to get ruined in this country in the near future and I don't want LiveATC to become a part of that.

I'll probably write alot more when my brain isn't fried from IFR.

~DAVE
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Miyridian
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« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2007, 12:42:09 AM »

I agree with pretty much everything that's been said. Controllers are not celebrities - they have enough stress at work that they deserve to be left alone when they're not on frequency.
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dave
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« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2007, 05:25:53 AM »

Totally agree.  No offense intended to anyone, but this whole fanclub/fanpage thing is really getting silly.  These guys are just private citizens who go to work every day and do their jobs.  They are not public persons, such as movie stars, music people, what have you and I doubt they want fan pages, etc. any more than I would for doing my job.
Let it go with enjoying the opportunity to listen to them and discussion here in the forums.  Anything beyond that is just ridiculous.
KP

Amen.
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w0x0f
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« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2007, 11:10:09 AM »

I have to agree that the notion of a controller fan club is a bit over the top.  I tend to stick with standard phraseology, which hopefully should not draw attention to myself.  The last thing that I want in today's FAA is attention drawn to me by some outside group.  They are looking for reasons to get rid of us right now if you haven't noticed.  I won't try to give them a reason.  I hope you all won't either.

w0x0f   
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RV1
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« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2007, 01:03:06 AM »

Just another note from a controller... This site is extremely educational for all who listen, however it can show you how to talk and how not to. As far as the phraseology of Boston John, sorry to say, but it makes me cringe. It's definetely not 7110.65 and because of that, he could find himself in hot water. Imagine if there was an incident and they pulled the tapes and transcribed everything he said. Not what you would want to read in the court papers. Also consider what happens to him if higher ups get wind of his transmissions due to this web site or one like it, and then you no longer hear B. John anymore. Like the other poster said, the FAA is trying their best to get rid of us, try not to help them!
      As far as this website goes, I stumbled upon it about 2 months ago. No one else from my facility had ever heard of it before.
     It really doesn't affect us when we're on position if someone is monitoring our freq. The FBOs and the fire stations are. We know that there are those with scanners around. As long as we stay with approved phraseology, we have nothing to be ashamed of. It may not be noteworthy for those of you on this forum, but it is as good as gold when they pull our tapes, transcribe our transmissions, and find no fault in our phraseology. As a side note, when I train controllers, I am rather anal about their phraseology that it be by the book. My reasoning is that when phraseology becomes second nature and you are able to rap it out without thinking about it, it gives you more time to actually control airplanes. The same should go for pilots...
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EivlEvo
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« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2007, 01:23:06 AM »

100% agree with you RV.

Im much more concerned about LIVEATC generated the kind of media publicity that gets certain people looked at when they thought they were only talking to people who would understand.

~DC
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keith
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« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2007, 11:22:44 AM »

Very interesting discussion about Boston John's .65 adherence. I'm only a pretend controller (VATSIM), but listening to him, he strikes an interesting balance of joking around AND great adherence to the .65.  Strip out the friendly/funny greetings, and his actual instructions seem to adhere perfectly to the .65. 

It's some of the controllers at OTHER facilities that say things like "Golf, Alpha Bravo, November, short of 31L" (I just made up the taxiways and rwys, but the idea is the same), rather than "rwy xx, taxi via Golf, Alpha Bravo, November, hold short of rwy 31L"

John seems to add a lot of "Goooooood morning" and "adios" calls, but when he's giving instructions, they seem to be right on the .65 money, from the times I've heard him at least.
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keith
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« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2007, 11:30:18 AM »

Oh, as for the fan pages thing...I understand the impulse to say that it's gone too far...but I think that the existence of a fan page is harmless, by and large.

I honestly think some of the clips in our very own forum that show controllers in moments of weakness when they're tired/grumpy/frazzled probably have the potential to do more harm to a controller's career than a simple fan page.  The reason?  Liveatc is a site that appears to be growing in popularity.  Once the media finds out that they can 'pull the tapes' virtually immediately after an alleged incident from the bulk of major airports, this site could become incredibly well known.  If the media, or any concerned citizen were then to stroll through the clips forum, they might be concerned about what they hear (regarding a controller's behavior, warranted or not), and then start moving things up the chain.

That seems like a much more likely outcome, in my mind, than a fan page leading to the demise of a controller. In short, the only ppl who are liklely to see the fan page are discerning liveatc listeners, whereas the audience for the liveatc forums is much wider.

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JetScan1
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« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2007, 12:38:09 PM »

Quote
I honestly think some of the clips in our very own forum that show controllers in moments of weakness when they're tired/grumpy/frazzled probably have the potential to do more harm to a controller's career than a simple fan page.

I agree, while I like having access to the recordings, I cringe sometimes when I see some of the clips that get posted here. Access to these recording provides a great learning tool but unfortunately the majority of the posters here seem to be using them for their own entertainment. These are people doing their jobs, give them a break, posting some of these clips is going to far. IMO. DJ
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RV1
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« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2007, 06:47:05 AM »

As far as B.john's transmissions, I have only listened to a few. One of the ones I did listen to was when he said that they needed to come up with a different name than 'Air Wisconsin'. If you listen closely, he starts to lose his frequency right at the end as the pilots all chime in with their ideas. You may consider that harmless and certain times of the day it may be, but it's too easy to get caught up. As I posted, the FAA would love to see the higher paid (translated to 'old pay band') out of the Agency. This is ammo for them.
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mkreilein
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« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2007, 11:52:22 AM »

As far as B.john's transmissions, I have only listened to a few. One of the ones I did listen to was when he said that they needed to come up with a different name than 'Air Wisconsin'. If you listen closely, he starts to lose his frequency right at the end as the pilots all chime in with their ideas. You may consider that harmless and certain times of the day it may be, but it's too easy to get caught up. As I posted, the FAA would love to see the higher paid (translated to 'old pay band') out of the Agency. This is ammo for them.

That wasn't Boston John.  You're thinking of the wrong person if that's the xmission you're basing it on.  The big clue is the controller saying "...Philly Tower..." several times in the clip.
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Matthew M. Kreilein
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« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2007, 12:46:38 PM »

I remember that morning.  That Philly guy was going on about Air Wisconsin all morning; some really funny transmissions in there.
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RV1
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« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2007, 01:56:15 PM »

I stand corrected but the concept is still the same. What qualifies as entertainment for some is a potential problem for others. Often I have heard a controller say to some extent "Don't call me, I'll call you, until then don't key up!" Frequency conjestion is bad enough. You can't imagine the feeling when you NEED to talk to one specific plane to turn or change their altitude but your transmissions keep getting blocked by other pilots. I have no gripe about the 'fan club' idea, it's the potential for causing harm to the controller that gets my attention. Like I said, after 19 years, you learn a thing or two about your employer.
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