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Author Topic: Affirmative or affirm?  (Read 31480 times)
busy
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« on: November 08, 2006, 12:27:15 AM »

Can you share your own experience with me?
Why do most English-speaking pilots while flying over Russia say "affirmative" whereas (as far as I know) "affirm" is preferred not to be confused with "negative"? Can't make that out.

Thanks in advance.

anna
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Yegger
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« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2006, 12:36:56 AM »

"Affirmative" is the offical term.  Those that say "affirm" are simply shortening the term.
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digger
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« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2006, 12:40:33 AM »

The "PILOT/CONTROLLER GLOSSARY" published by the FAA (http://www.faa.gov/ATPUBS/PCG/INDEX.HTM) lists "Affirmative", but does not list "affirm". That leads me to believe that, at least as far as the FAA goes, "affirm" falls short of being "proper phraseology". (Although I have heard it used on frequency')
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Lukas Kaufmann
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« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2006, 01:59:45 PM »

That apparently is different from region to region...the JAA says it should be Affirm and not Affirmative...I guess everyone does it as he likes rolleyes
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michaelawai
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« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2006, 08:32:11 PM »

"Affirmative" is the offical term.  Those that say "affirm" are simply shortening the term.

i was taught during my PPL training in radio phraseology by one of the heads in ATC in the Piarco FIR,, "affirmative" has been replace by "affirm" to avoid conflict with "negative", due to an accident involving mis-communication of the words "affirmative" and "nevegative" due to a slip of the mic, it is a published change. Air Traffic Controllers should be aware of this change.
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w0x0f
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« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2006, 11:18:42 AM »


i was taught during my PPL training in radio phraseology by one of the heads in ATC in the Piarco FIR,, "affirmative" has been replace by "affirm" to avoid conflict with "negative", due to an accident involving mis-communication of the words "affirmative" and "nevegative" due to a slip of the mic, it is a published change. Air Traffic Controllers should be aware of this change.

NEGATIVE
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2006, 07:43:47 PM »

i was taught during my PPL training in radio phraseology by one of the heads in ATC in the Piarco FIR,, "affirmative" has been replace by "affirm" to avoid conflict with "negative", due to an accident involving mis-communication of the words "affirmative" and "nevegative" due to a slip of the mic, it is a published change. Air Traffic Controllers should be aware of this change.

Not in this US, it hasn't been replaced.

Affirmative is still the proper word to use to answer in the affirmative.
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Regards, Peter
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busy
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« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2006, 11:08:02 PM »

Strange, isn't it?
Such a simple word and so many people have different opinions about its usage. Though someone could think it is not important...
Anyway here in Russia we keep to "Affirm".

Thanks,
Anna
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michaelawai
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« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2006, 08:50:09 PM »

Funny.. cause i also read it in a US aviation magazine about the conflict of the words "affirmative" and "negative",, in the radios exam here,, if we say "affirmative", its WRONG..

Do me a favour and re-check the revised documents on radio telephony.. see what you guys find..

"Affirm" all the way..
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digger
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« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2006, 09:39:52 PM »

The Pilot/Controller glossary that I posted the link to above is dated August of this year.
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PHL Approach
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« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2006, 10:45:27 PM »

Funny.. cause i also read it in a US aviation magazine about the conflict of the words "affirmative" and "negative",, in the radios exam here,, if we say "affirmative", its WRONG..

Do me a favour and re-check the revised documents on radio telephony.. see what you guys find..

"Affirm" all the way..



Quote from: FAA AIM-August 2006-Chapter 4-2-3 Section C
Acknowledge with your aircraft identification, either at the beginning or at the end of your transmission, and one of the words "Wilco," "Roger," "Affirmative," "Negative," or other appropriate remarks; e.g., "PIPER TWO ONE FOUR LIMA, ROGER."

I would follow an FAA document over a flying publication any day.
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michaelawai
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« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2006, 12:24:35 PM »

Funny.. cause i also read it in a US aviation magazine about the conflict of the words "affirmative" and "negative",, in the radios exam here,, if we say "affirmative", its WRONG..

Do me a favour and re-check the revised documents on radio telephony.. see what you guys find..

"Affirm" all the way..



Quote from: FAA AIM-August 2006-Chapter 4-2-3 Section C
Acknowledge with your aircraft identification, either at the beginning or at the end of your transmission, and one of the words "Wilco," "Roger," "Affirmative," "Negative," or other appropriate remarks; e.g., "PIPER TWO ONE FOUR LIMA, ROGER."

I would follow an FAA document over a flying publication any day.


i said DOCUMENTS.. not the magazine.. check it.. im pretty sure ud see a change.. cause if thats in our documents down here,, it must be up there as the whole world falls under the same radio telephony under ICAO...
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PHL Approach
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« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2006, 04:41:50 PM »

Quote from: FAA AIM-August 2006-Chapter 4-2-3 Section C
Acknowledge with your aircraft identification, either at the beginning or at the end of your transmission, and one of the words "Wilco," "Roger," "Affirmative," "Negative," or other appropriate remarks; e.g., "PIPER TWO ONE FOUR LIMA, ROGER."

I would follow an FAA document over a flying publication any day.

i said DOCUMENTS.. not the magazine.. check it.. im pretty sure ud see a change.. cause if thats in our documents down here,, it must be up there as the whole world falls under the same radio telephony under ICAO...


Quote from: michaelawai
cause i also read it in a US aviation magazine about the conflict of the words

See whats in the bold....
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michaelawai
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« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2006, 05:06:22 PM »

no wonder there are so many incidents in the US..

God be with you all
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aerosnoop
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« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2006, 08:15:04 PM »

michael I think you are blowing this way out of proportion. The Aeronautical Information Manual (AIM) states clearly that use of the word "Affirmative" is correct. Thats about the most official document that you'll find in the U.S. next to the Federal Aviation Regulations. As long as I live in the U.S. I'm going to follow what they suggest.
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digger
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« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2006, 12:47:56 AM »

Quote
no wonder there are so many incidents in the US..

God be with you all

If you can point out one where the difference between "affirm" and "affirmative" was identified as a factor, your post might have some merit.
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michaelawai
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« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2006, 06:16:39 AM »

im not blowin anything anywhere..

im not from the US..  im under british rules

i fall under the british system.. but if the FAA wants to keep confusing ppl between affirmative and negative with a simple mic clip,, thats them..
far as i know.. british is more recognised.. so im sticking to affirm..

now im goin to eat my ice cream
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w0x0f
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« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2006, 10:50:25 PM »


i fall under the british system.. but if the FAA wants to keep confusing ppl between affirmative and negative with a simple mic clip,, thats them..
far as i know.. british is more recognised.. so im sticking to affirm..


A cure for clipped transmissions:

http://www.avweb.com/news/sayagain/182633-1.html

Nothing beats doing it right the first time.  I recommend all of the articles in this series.

By the way...It's Affirmative.

w0x0f
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michaelawai
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« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2006, 06:16:08 PM »

hey i understand if in the US its affirmative.. no problem with that..

but in other parts of the world.. like in the caribbean.. and as busy said in russia (i believe)

its "affirm"
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busy
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« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2006, 05:51:10 PM »

Hi
As I understand as soon as you leave US you fall under international laws (so that is ICAO ones). In Appendix 5 to Doc 4444 you can see AFFIRM but this section describes CPDLC message set though I don't think that it must differ from radio communication.   


Thanks,
Busy
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busy
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« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2006, 08:46:53 PM »

I am sorry I do not listen to lots of controllers I am speaking about foreign (including native and non-native English speakers) pilots flying over Russian airspace. They all say AFFIRMATIVE. And I guess there are plenty of examples at this forum as well. Just listen to the "SORRY WHAT WAS THE FREQUENCY?" at this forum and you will hear that.

Thanks,
Busy
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way-out
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« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2007, 09:27:15 AM »

ICAO (of which the USA is a member) prescribes "Affirm" as the standard word.
However, most people, controllers alike still use Affirmative  which was officially abandonded ages ago.
 See ICAO Annex 10, Vol 2, chapter 5, Which prescribes required Standards.
Bye,
Way-out.
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w0x0f
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« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2007, 09:35:49 AM »

ICAO (of which the USA is a member) prescribes "Affirm" as the standard word.
However, most people, controllers alike still use Affirmative  which was officially abandonded ages ago.
 See ICAO Annex 10, Vol 2, chapter 5, Which prescribes required Standards.
Bye,
Way-out.

Until this changes http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/pcg/

Controllers in the US will say affirmative and be correct.  Affirmative may have been abandoned by ICAO, but controllers in the US must follow FAA rules and regulations. 

w0x0f
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tyketto
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« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2007, 01:22:11 PM »

This has a simple solution, everyone.

The FAA has listed "affirmative" in its documentation. That's fine. ICAO uses "affirm" as its standard.

As the ICAO is international, that doesn't mean that a country could have some other underlying standard or rule they want their controllers and pilots to follow. In this case, the FAA does have something underlying from what ICAO prescribes.

Work with me on this. Smiley Say you live in a country which has a law that states that you must throw away your straw wrapper immediately after you open it. But there is also an international law that states that you must wait until your drink is finished before throwing away the straw wrapper.

Which is going to take precedence? Laws relative to your locale, of course. That doesn't mean it trumps international law, but that international law is supplemental to local law. Such is the same with "affirm" vs. "Affirmative". Both are right, depending on where you are and which regulations apply.

So as a pilot, if you fly from Gatwick to Vegas (VIR43, VIR44), you should probably be up to speed with both regulations in both countries, as well as ICAO regs, as ALL would apply; but local ones to that region would take precedence.

BL.
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XTSKid
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« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2007, 04:16:11 PM »

no wonder there are so many incidents in the US..

God be with you all

 rolleyes rolleyes rolleyes

Care to explain what you mean by this?
« Last Edit: March 29, 2007, 04:18:27 PM by XTSKid » Logged

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