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Author Topic: Aircraft on the missed at JFK  (Read 5957 times)
air727
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« on: July 13, 2008, 09:21:06 PM »

Regarding  the two near misses we had at JFK. Most of us are well aware that an aircraft on approach which has been cleared to land can go missed approach at any point for any reason.

That being said, if you have perpendicular departures and arrivals, it makes sense to have the landing a/c  clear the active before releasing the departing a/c.

It sounds pretty basic but I just don't understand why this is all happening now. They're other facilities that have perpendicular traffic and have been operating this way for quite some time.

Time is money and I guess that's the bottom line.




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w0x0f
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« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2008, 09:12:02 AM »

http://jurassicbark.blogspot.com/2008/07/another-near-hit-at-jfk-airport.html

This may help explain.

w0x0f
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MathFox
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« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2008, 04:47:12 PM »

After reading jurassicbark, (lots of insuniation, "analysis" lacking basis in facts) I have one question for the controllers/pilots: What are the separation minimums in VFR flight?
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ATCWanAaB
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« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2008, 05:59:28 PM »



Quote
What are the separation minimums in VFR flight?

Don't Hit... These a/c were still on IFR flight plans and needed to maintain IFR separation minimums.

The only time VFR separation can be used in an IFR environment is when the controller has pointed out both a/c to each other and instructed them to maintain visual separation. That was not the case in this situation. 
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2008, 06:57:04 PM »

The only time VFR separation can be used in an IFR environment is when the controller has pointed out both a/c to each other and instructed them to maintain visual separation. That was not the case in this situation. 

What do you mean by "IFR environment?"   Aircraft on an IFR flight plan in VMC or aircraft on an IFR flight plan in IMC?

Aircraft on an IFR flight plan in VMC (at least as far as US regs are concerned), when cleared for a visual approach, are no longer held to IFR separation minimums.

edit:  added note about US regs
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
ATCWanAaB
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« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2008, 09:57:37 PM »

They are only cleared for a visual approach when they report the airport or the preceding a/c in sight. In which case, they would be maintaining visual separation from that traffic. That was not the case here. The controller issues vectors as he should have to prevent a collision, but separation was lost.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2008, 10:07:05 PM »

They are only cleared for a visual approach when they report the airport or the preceding a/c in sight. In which case, they would be maintaining visual separation from that traffic. That was not the case here.

I was responding to your assertion that "the only time VFR separation can be used in an IFR environment is when the controller has pointed out both a/c to each other..."
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RV1
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« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2008, 11:53:46 PM »

If an IFR plane is cleared for a visual appch, the controller is still responsible to maintain standard IFR separation between it and any other IFRs. If one IFR advises that they have the other IFR in sight, the controller must tell him to 'maintain visual separation from...' and at that point they avoid each other. All bets are off if one goes missed. Originally, the end of the runway that the plane is landing on is where the plane's flight path ends. This allows the controller to depart another plane from a perpendicular runway, because the other plane should never go past the end of the runway. On a MA, the flight path now continues right to where the other plane is....   Huge problem! Very cool and nifty when it works right.   Not very pretty when it doesn't.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2008, 08:35:22 AM »

If an IFR plane is cleared for a visual appch, the controller is still responsible to maintain standard IFR separation between it and any other IFRs. If one IFR advises that they have the other IFR in sight, the controller must tell him to 'maintain visual separation from...' and at that point they avoid each other.

Okay, my mistake.    

Is it even possible to clear an aircraft that is number two or greater in line to the airport for a visual approach if they don't have traffic to follow in sight?    My understanding is that the number one aircraft will be given a visual only when he/she calls airport in sight and every aircraft behind that one must call following traffic in sight before getting the visual (which I now see is what ATCWannabe was asserting and the detail I missed).  

Of the top of my head I cannot think of a scenario where a visual approach has been given but that aircraft is still under IFR separation standards.  
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
Jason
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« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2008, 09:53:51 AM »

Okay, my mistake.    

Is it even possible to clear an aircraft that is number two or greater in line to the airport for a visual approach if they don't have traffic to follow in sight?    My understanding is that the number one aircraft will be given a visual only when he/she calls airport in sight and every aircraft behind that one must call following traffic in sight before getting the visual (which I now see is what ATCWannabe was asserting and the detail I missed).  

Of the top of my head I cannot think of a scenario where a visual approach has been given but that aircraft is still under IFR separation standards.

Sure, but the controller assumes radar separation responsibility until the aircraft reports the preceding aircraft in sight and is instructed to maintain visual separation.

Quote from: FAA JO 7110.65S 7-4-3
c. Clear an aircraft for a visual approach when:

1. The aircraft is number one in the approach sequence, or

2. The aircraft is to follow a preceding aircraft and the pilot reports the preceding aircraft in sight and is instructed to follow it, or

NOTE-
The pilot need not report the airport/runway in sight.

3. The pilot reports the airport or runway in sight but not the preceding aircraft. Radar separation must be maintained until visual separation is provided.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 09:56:12 AM by Jason » Logged
ATCWanAaB
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« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2008, 09:55:24 AM »

Quote
Is it even possible to clear an aircraft that is number two or greater in line to the airport for a visual approach if they don't have traffic to follow in sight?

No, the controller cannot clear that plane for the approach until he reports the preceding a/c in sight (that aircraft MUST have already been cleared for the visual approach, and you can link more the 2 or 3 together.). If the pilot is having difficulty finding the a/c, then the controller can either clear the a/c for an ILS approach, or have the pilot report the airport in sight and then clear them for a visual approach. If the latter is the case, visual separation does not apply, and the controller needs to ensure separation.

This brings me to an interesting side story which was debated on this forum before, but I can't find the thread.

Once, while listening to Kennedy Final, I heard a controller issue traffic to an aircraft for the purpose of having the a/c follow the traffic to final, just as we discussed above.

It was night time, and the pilot was simply unable to locate the preceding traffic. At this point, the final controller handed off the a/c to Kennedy Tower (without an approach clearance).

I immediately switch the feed over to tower.

The a/c checks on, and tower immediately asks, "Do you have the field in sight?"

The pilot responds with a yes, and the tower controller issues a visual approach clearance. Everything from this point on was normal. 

I just thought this was the weirdest thing ever. I had never heard it happen anywhere before. But if I remember correctly, someone in the previous thread had explained it. Just though I would share that story.

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Jason
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« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2008, 10:00:33 AM »

No, the controller cannot clear that plane for the approach until he reports the preceding a/c in sight (that aircraft MUST have already been cleared for the visual approach, and you can link more the 2 or 3 together.)

Take another look at the 7110.65, it is possible if the aircraft reports the field in sight, but the controller retains radar separation responsibility.
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rpd
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« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2008, 10:20:14 AM »

Jason is correct, it happens every day.  Often it is difficult for aircraft to spot RJ's and biz jets visually, but they see the airport.  As long as some other seperation is maintained, cleared visual approach.  A mix of visuals and ILS approaches is also not uncommon.  Were I work the foreign carriers who just crossed the Atlantic and are not familiar with the airport almost always fly ILS approaches regardless of weather.  They are mixed in with all of the "regulars" doing visuals. 
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ATCWanAaB
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« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2008, 10:24:37 AM »

Jason and RPD, just take a look at the rest of my post. I understand that it is possible, and I address that in the rest of the post.

The way I worded it was confusing and out of order.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 10:29:46 AM by ATCWanAaB » Logged
KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2008, 11:02:41 AM »

Sure, but the controller assumes radar separation responsibility until the aircraft reports the preceding aircraft in sight and is instructed to maintain visual separation.

Thanks, Jason - You are a fountain of aviation procedural knowledge.  Perhaps your next order of business should be to get your CFI/CFII?   Smiley
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
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