ATC-Holding-pattern chatter?

[Susan27]

Hi,

I would like to listen to some holding-pattern ATC-radio chatter in the KJFK region, but wasnt successful so far. Is this perhapes because there isnt a NY-center feed (where holding instructions are given by ATC) yet...?

If possible could someone give me a hint where (also besides NY-area) best to find ATC-Holding-pattern chatter...?

Thanks very much!

Kind regards

Susan

[KSYR-pjr]

Wait for some thunderstorms to move through the area or often there are volume-related holding instructions handed out in droves around 8:00am every weekday.

This is an excellent US-wide composite radar site for monitoring weather:

http://radar.weather.gov/ridge/Conus/full_lite_loop.php

[Susan27]

Thanks for your reply!

OK, but on which special ATC-feed (frequency) I can listen to those holding-patterns into NY-area you mentioned above (I hope that this isnt the New-York Center frequency which isnt "broadcasted" here on the I-Net)?

1) Is this CAMRN-, ROBER- or the Final ATC-Feed?

2) Flights coming from north-east (Europe) inbound KJFK-area:

Do you guys have any information over which VOR/navaid/Int those planes are usually commanded to perform holding patterns before they are cleared furtheron to NY-area?

Many thanks for your help in advance

[ATCWanAaB]

There are three NY Center feeds on the website.

Scroll to the bottom:
http://www.liveatc.net/feedindex.php?type=class-d-center

You can download (PDF) the sectors charts here.

http://web.nbaa.org/public/ops/airspace/faa_lta_0801.pdf

[JetScan1]

OK, but on which special ATC-feed (frequency) I can listen to those holding-patterns into NY-area you mentioned above (I hope that this isnt the New-York Center frequency which isnt "broadcasted" here on the I-Net)?

1) Is this CAMRN-, ROBER- or the Final ATC-Feed?

2) Flights coming from north-east (Europe) inbound KJFK-area:

Do you guys have any information over which VOR/navaid/Int those planes are usually commanded to perform holding patterns before they are cleared furtheron to NY-area?

As far as JFK goes it's very rare to get any holding in the terminal area (ROBER, CAMRN, Final sectors), enroute holding is done on the adjacent enroute Center frequencies.

From Europe there are two primary arrival routes into JFK, the most common is via the Kennebunk 4/Plymouth 4 ...

http://edj.net/cgi-bin/echoplate.pl?arrivals/KENNEBUNK%20ARR.gif

http://edj.net/cgi-bin/echoplate.pl?arrivals/PLYMOUTH%20ARR.gif

The other route, more northern and far less common, is via the Kingston 8 ...

http://edj.net/cgi-bin/echoplate.pl?arrivals/KINGSTON%20ARR.gif

If you look on these charts you can see the published holding points depicted by a race tack pattern. On the Kennebunk/Plymouth route they're located at the points PVD (Providence), TRAIT, CCC (Calverton), and on the Kingston route they're located at IGN (Kingston) and LENDY.

On the Kennebunk/Plymouth route the following frequencies are used:

118.425 Boston Center (initial descent to FL240, holding at PVD and TRAIT)
135.800 Boston Center (descent to 12000, holding at CCC) (132.300 sometimes used)
125.700 New York Approach (ROBER sector)

On the "ZBW - Boston Center High (Atlantic)" feed you can hear aircraft (no controller) on Boston 118.425.

On the "KISP - Islip, NY" feed you can find Boston on 135.800/132.300, however the reception range is very poor on this radio and you can only hear the JFK arrivals (no controller) when they pass very close to the ISP airport (not really worth listening to for JFK arrivals).

On the Kingston route the following frequencies are used:

125.575 Boston Center (descending to FL280, to FL200, holding at IGN)
132.600 New York Center (or 133.150 when busy) (holding at LENDY)
127.400 New York Approach (CAMRN sector) (or lately 132.400 has been used)

On the "KBDR-Bridgeport CT/ZBW" feed you can hear traffic on 125.575 (no controller).

New York Center on 132.600 and 133.150 are currently not covered by any feeds.

They are forecasting thunderstorms at JFK this afternoon (Sunday the 27th, between 1300-1600 local/1700-2000 UTC), this is during the afternoon rush, should be lots of delays and holding.

DJ

[KSYR-pjr]

Nicely done, DJ. 

One question:  Regarding the Kingston arrival, where does the Boston Center frequency, 134.30 (IIRC), fit in?  I hear a lot of holding instructions on this frequency being given to EWR and LGA arrivals, which is the freq I am on between Delancy and Kingston VORs en route to White Plains, NY every Monday AM.

[KSYR-pjr]

They are forecasting thunderstorms at JFK this afternoon (Sunday the 27th, between 1300-1600 local/1700-2000 UTC), this is during the afternoon rush, should be lots of delays and holding.

You got that right!  The lines are building already:

[Jason]

Nicely done, DJ. 

One question:  Regarding the Kingston arrival, where does the Boston Center frequency, 134.30 (IIRC), fit in?  I hear a lot of holding instructions on this frequency being given to EWR and LGA arrivals, which is the freq I am on between Delancy and Kingston VORs en route to White Plains, NY every Monday AM.

Sector 05 primarily works New York metropolitan arrivals. The sector provides en route spacing to EWR and EWR satellite airports in a southerly flow. Sector 05 also sequences aircraft landing LGA and HPN airports, and their respective satellites that are entering Sector 06. In addition, Sector 05 works arrivals and departures to/from the Catskill area airports, as well as en route traffic on V408, V106, and V58. Due to the volume of transitioning aircraft and crossing flows, a high level of complexity exists throughout the sector.

Holding:
1. SHAFF (Published) - Non-radar - Hold northeast on V213, left turns, 8000 feet MSL and below, maximum speed 230 knots, 1 minute legs. Simultaneous holding at SHAFF and HUO is authorized at and below 8000 feet MSL.

2. HUO (Unpublished) - Non-radar - Hold north, HUO R019, right turns, 8000 feet MSL and below, maximum speed 230 knots, 1 minute legs. Jet holding at 6000 feet MSL conflicts with N90. Simultaneous holding at SHAFF and HUO is authorized at and below 8000 feet MSL.

3. HELON (Published) - Non-radar - Hold north on V213, right turns, 8000 through 14,000 feet MSL, maximum speed 230 knots, 1 minute legs. Simultaneous holding at HELON and WEARD at the same altitude is not authorized at or above 8000 feet MSL. Coordination required with Sector 06 above 12,000 feet MSL.

4. WEARD (Published) - Non-radar - Hold north on the HUO 019R, right turns, 7000 through 9000 feet MSL, maximum speed 230 knots, 1 minute legs. Simultaneous holding at WEARD and FILPS at the same altitude is not authorized. Simultaneous holding at WEARD and HELON at the same altitude is not authorized at or above 8000 feet MSL.

5. FILPS (Unpublished) - Non-radar - Hold northwest on the DNY 130R (V483) 29 DME, left turns, 7000 through 9000 feet MSL, maximum speed 230 knots, 1 minute legs. Simultaneous holding at FILPS and WEARD at the same altitude is not authorized.

6. WEARD (Unpublished) - Non-radar - Hold northwest on the HNK 128R (V167) 40 DME, right turns, 7000 through 9000 feet MSL, maximum speed 230 knots, 1 minute

[JetScan1]

Regarding the Kingston arrival, where does the Boston Center frequency, 134.30 (IIRC), fit in?

As Jason says, JFK Kingston arrivals won't go through that sector, 134.300 is west of that area, handling primarily EWR arrivals (via SHAFF6) and HPN arrivals (via VALRE2). When it's slow they merge 134.300 with 128.100 (LGA arrivals).

The lines are building already:

Just watching the show now (using Flight Explorer) and it's turning into a real mess, JFK arrivals backed up and holding all over the place as well as a bunch of diversions.

If you listen to the  "ZBW - Boston Center High (Atlantic)"  feed you can hear JFK arrivals flights getting holds as far back as over BOS and FRILL.

DJ

[Jason]

Regarding the Kingston arrival, where does the Boston Center frequency, 134.30 (IIRC), fit in?

As Jason says, JFK Kingston arrivals won't go through that sector, 134.300 is west of that area, handling primarily EWR arrivals (via SHAFF6) and HPN arrivals (via VALRE2). When it's slow they merge 134.300 with 128.100 (LGA arrivals).

SWF 05 is indeed often combined with the PWL 06 sector, usually toward the evening hours.  JFK and LGA arrivals generally remain northwest, east, or south of SWF 05, but they do handle HPN arrivals on the VALRE3, on the published segment between DNY and WEETS (and slightly beyond WEETS).

[KSYR-pjr]

As Jason says, JFK Kingston arrivals won't go through that sector, 134.300 is west of that area, handling primarily EWR arrivals (via SHAFF6) and HPN arrivals (via VALRE2). When it's slow they merge 134.300 with 128.100 (LGA arrivals).

Thanks, Jason and DJ.  In flying to HPN today I noticed that it was actually the next frequency down the line, Boston Center at 128.10, that was handling the holds going into LGA, as you both pointed out.

[Susan27]

Thanks so much DJ and you other guys for the great explanation and work...!

If you listen to the  "ZBW - Boston Center High (Atlantic)"  feed you can hear JFK arrivals flights getting holds as far back as over BOS and FRILL.
DJ

1) I would love to hear some holding instructions (havent been successful to hear any holdig instructions till today). Could someone give me an UTC/GMT time for 27th July and the appropriate  ATC-feed (which Boston Center feed...only Center High (Atlantic)...?)...?

2) What is the reason that on "ZBW - Boston Center High (Atlantic)" feed only the aircrafts can be listened to? Where does the transmitting ATC-antennas ar located for the Atlantic-freq...?

Thanks again...

[JetScan1]

What is the reason that on "ZBW - Boston Center High (Atlantic)" feed only the aircrafts can be listened to? Where does the transmitting ATC-antennas ar located for the Atlantic-freq...?

You can not hear the controller because the feed is not close enough to any of the transmitter sites (various locations). The radio is scanning 4 very busy high altitude sectors so it can get very busy.

Could someone give me an UTC/GMT time for 27th July and the appropriate  ATC-feed (which Boston Center feed...only Center High (Atlantic)...?)

On the Boston Center High (Atlantic) feed you will hear flights holding for JFK around between 1800 UTC to 1930 UTC (27th July). Flights on these frequencies are arriving into JFK on the Kennebunk/Plymouth arrival route, but this route gets closed down because of the thunderstorms, so they are given holds over BOS, FRILL and even ENE (see map), then re-routed via the Kingston route to keep them away from the line of storms, while some flights divert to other airports.

I would love to hear some holding instructions (havent been successful to hear any holdig instructions till today).

Listen to the ZNY-MDT Sector archive on 27JUL at 1800Z. This radio is only on one frequency (132.200) and you can hear the New York Center controller. About 10 minutes into the recording (around 1810Z) you will hear an Austrian Airlines flight 93 and a United Airlines flight 951 get holding instructions. Both these flights are arriving into Washington, Dulles (IAD) on the Phillipsburg 2 arrival route and the flights are initially given a hold at the waypoint PRTZL. You can see the route, waypoint and hold depicted here ....

http://edj.net/cgi-bin/echoplate.pl?arrivals/PHILIPSBURG%20ARR.gif

DJ

[Susan27]

Thanks DJ, I was able to listen to "my" first Holding instrustions...!