Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
July 28, 2014, 12:17:55 AM
Home Help Login Register      
News: NEW Follow LiveATC updates on Twitter and Facebook


+  LiveATC Discussion Forums
|-+  Air Traffic Monitoring
| |-+  Listener Forum (Moderators: dave, RonR)
| | |-+  ATC in JFK
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Go Down Print
Author Topic: ATC in JFK  (Read 10610 times)
lostmoon
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 31


« on: August 18, 2006, 01:01:40 PM »

Good morning and Happy Friday, [EDIT: Sorry about that poll thingy. No idea what that is. Disregard it please]

Relatively new here, and have throughly enjoyed the various ATCs throughout the globe.

I have a question regarding ATC and how they advance through the system. Does one start doing ground/delivery, then slowly move up to tower, then subsequently to APP, DEP and eventually CTR?

Sorry if this is potentially a stupid question. I am just thinking in terms of what occurs in VATSIM.


Thanks,
Tom
KJFK


P.S. I think the very colorful guy on JFK GND who is subject to many posts on the forum is no longer on GND? I heard someone very similiary to him on the DEL position, that is what inspired my inquiry above. Can ATCs also be demoted from let's say, TWR, to something else?
« Last Edit: August 18, 2006, 01:04:54 PM by lostmoon » Logged
nitroboie
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 34


« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2006, 01:27:18 PM »

All of the controllers rotate, they don't just work tower, ground, delivery. They often work all three within their shift.
Logged
lostmoon
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 31


« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2006, 03:04:52 PM »

thanks.
Logged
PHL Approach
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 743



« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2006, 09:55:04 PM »

I'll go a little more indepth. You have terminal positions which at an "Up and Down" facility unlike Kennedy but like Philly have the possibility of working Delivery, Ground, Local, Approach and Departure. At a facility such as Kennedy, Los Angeles or Boston. They are not up and down facilities and just have cab positions as the Tracon is generally 10's of miles away from the Tower. So they can only work Delivery, Ground and Locals or other non control positions. Generally progression in Up and Downs is Non control positions such as Approach Data (delivering printed strips to the Feeder positions), Flight Data/ Clearance Delivery, then Ground control positions, Local control positions and in some facilities... I wont say all, start you on Departure then you can start working on Approach positions. All in all it may take a certain amount of hours on a position before an instructor may sign you off.

You have the other set of progression, but in a different environment... Enroute. You would normally start in the classroom. Start testing on maps, learn the airspace and then move out to the floor to start working on A-Side's (Associate) in your Area/ Specialty. This depends on the complexity of operations in your Area or even time it takes to receive instruction before you can move up. After you get certed on a all sectors in your area for A-Side you move onto D-Side's sometimes referred to as H-Sides (Data or Handoff). After you cert on the D-Sides in your area you can then move up to the fun stuff when you get to actually start communicating with pilots... Known as the R-Side (Radar), this is the last major jump in certifications. After you end up certing on all A-Sides, D/H-Sides and R-Sides in your Area. You now have a good chunk of expertise in your area and you are tagged a CPC (Certified Professional Controller) or what it use to be called FPL (Full Performance Level)

Im very tired so forgive me for any mistakes. Im sure our RW enroute guys could make some corrections on my enroute stuff if I slipped.
Logged
davolijj
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 547


MMAC ARSR OKC


« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2006, 11:30:16 PM »

...I'm sure our RW enroute guys could make some corrections on my enroute stuff if I slipped...

Nice summation Ed, but just to clarify on the EnRoute progression:

An Area/Specialty usually consists of 6-8 sectors all of which have R and D positions.  The different positions are A-side (Assistant), D-side (Radar Associate), R-side (Radar controller), and H-side (Handoff/Tracker).  In URET facilities there is only 1 or 2 A-side positions for the whole area so certifying on them takes only a couple of days or 2 weeks tops.  After certifying on the A-sides developmentals go back into the classroom where they receive classroom and labratory instruction on the Radar Associate or D-side position.  They then receive OJT instruction on each D position in the area until they've certified on them all.  Then it's back up to the classroom again this time for R class before they go back down to the floor for OJTI working radar.  When they certify on all radar positions they become CPCs.  The H-side is a position that CPCs work on busy sectors and it's not a part of the developmental progression.
Logged

Regards
JD
blizzard242
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 130



« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2006, 12:18:27 AM »

I think he was asking what steps of atc a flight goes through, not how an atc gets certified. I beleve that it is ground, tower dep, app. center.
Logged

digger
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 281


« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2006, 01:48:21 AM »

Nah. Read it again...


Quote
I have a question regarding ATC and how they advance through the system. Does one start doing ground/delivery, then slowly move up to tower, then subsequently to APP, DEP and eventually CTR?
Logged
PaulRichardson82
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 28


« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2006, 04:57:48 PM »

Follow-up question:

Do controllers get promoted to from smaller airports to the bigger and busier ones?
Logged
w0x0f
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 318



« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2006, 07:41:32 PM »

Follow-up question:

Do controllers get promoted to from smaller airports to the bigger and busier ones?

That's the way it's supposed to work, but the FAA finds itself in these hiring crunches every 25 years or so.  It started 8/3/1981 and now all the controllers that were hired after the PATCO firing are now becoming eligible to retire.  The new hires were thrown into busy facilities back then because those were the most critical to the aviation system.  It will happen all over again in the next few years.  The agency's imposed work rules upon current controllers will most likely hasten the retirements.

w0x0f
Logged
IndyTower
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 324



« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2006, 08:36:01 PM »

Follow-up question:

Do controllers get promoted to from smaller airports to the bigger and busier ones?

That's the way it's supposed to work, but the FAA finds itself in these hiring crunches every 25 years or so.  It started 8/3/1981 and now all the controllers that were hired after the PATCO firing are now becoming eligible to retire.  The new hires were thrown into busy facilities back then because those were the most critical to the aviation system.  It will happen all over again in the next few years.  The agency's imposed work rules upon current controllers will most likely hasten the retirements.

w0x0f

...and this is what some of us on here are getting ourselves into.  Wink
Logged
w0x0f
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 318



« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2006, 03:43:42 PM »


...and this is what some of us on here are getting ourselves into.  Wink

Good luck.

w0x0f
Logged
Scrapper
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 152


« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2006, 07:15:47 PM »

Hi all... sorry no posts in a while... I was on vacation...

In Canada, things are a little different (isn't this true of just about everything? rolleyes
Nav Canada will hire people into one of three jobs... VFR controller, IFR controller, and FSS. Flight Service Specialist is not actually a controller, but still essential part of flying, as they provide weather reports, work at uncontrolled airports, help pilots find information, pass on clearances, etc. VFR controllers control based on visual seperation, and are not qualified to provide IFR seperation... they work in towers and provide visual seperation for aircraft in flight within the airport control zone (5 or 7 miles depending on the airport... so fairly small...) and all the traffic on the ground... this is broken down to Tower, working the stuff in flight and all active runways, ground which controls, well, quite frankly, everything else on the ground (sometimes at busy airports there is also apron, self explanatory) and finally clearance delivery which is where you obtain your flight clearance... so in actual fact, it starts in reverse... a plane would contact delivery, then apron to push, eventually ground for taxi instructions, and tower prior to entering an active runway and for take off... so far I believe this is exactly the same as in the states... here's where it changes for us though... once you take off and contact departure, whereas some airports in the states have their own approach and departure control, and other places have seperate terminal radar control sites dedicated to the terminal area, our terminal control units are ALL located at the centres... (what you would call artcc)... so if you become an IFR controller instead of a VFR controller, then after school, you would start working one of the sectors in that centre (ie. montreal centre has high sectors, low sectors, but also, montreal TCU, and Captals TCU (which controls traffic landing in Quebec city, and traffic landing in ottawa... obviously not done by the same person though hehe!)

So an IFR controller can expect to do some radar controlling, some non-radar controlling in areas with no radar coverage and eventually with a lot of experience, TCUs... but in Canada, you're either trained as an IFR controller or a VFR controller... but not both at once... so a VFR controller gets assigned to an airport (sometimes a less busy one, but not always...) but an IFR controller goes to a centre (all are equally busy as far as NAV CANADA is concerned...) I guess that's the only major difference between the two countries... all IFR control (including terminal control is done at one of the seven centres (gander, moncton, montreal, toronto, winnipeg, edmonton or vancouver). some are not even within the airport grounds (like in montreal) whereas others are right next to the tower (ie. toronto, but even there, a guy working in the centre, wouldn't ever work in the tower, and vice versa... different type of control... but the guys in the tower rotate through all the positions in the tower, and a guy in the centre would normally also rotate through various positions within his sector, but also every so often would be assigned into another sector as well...)

hope i didn't confuse everyone...

anyone want to talk military? hehe... just kidding...
Logged
Pygmie
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 69


« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2006, 08:36:37 PM »

VFR controllers control based on visual seperation, and are not qualified to provide IFR seperation...

That's not quite true. . .  There are many towers in Canada that are qualified to provide IFR separation within a certain radius around the airport.
Logged
dontsayuhoh
Guest
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2006, 09:27:38 PM »

Well some towers are able to provide initial IFR separation (tower release) but I wouldnt really consider that ifr separation in the zone as its only off the ground.  And certainly not many towers in canada.
Logged
Pygmie
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 69


« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2006, 10:39:52 PM »

It's not just initial IFR separation they can provide.  The towers I work with can provide arrival-arrival, arrival-departure, as well as departure-departure (initial) IFR separation.  They have to be qualified in doing it, and as such are IFR certified within a certain area.  They are using IFR separation standards, based on IFR procedures and regulations, so I don't see how you wouldn't consider that IFR separation.  I mean, if they aren't providing me with IFR separation when departure release is in place, just what the hell are they giving me?

Also, YVR and YYZ towers are classified as fully IFR towers, others are simply IFR certified for ADR (of which I can think of at least 10), so there are a few.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2011, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!