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Author Topic: bring me up to speed!  (Read 9296 times)
roops
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« on: May 30, 2007, 10:30:05 AM »

please!

it's been less than a week since i stumbled elsewhere on the internet onto an mp3 of the, it seems, infamous Arnie sorting out a mess at JFK. I have no idea why it sparked such an interest in me! Subsequent searches have led me here and to listening to countless other tapes and feeds since then. Fascinating stuff. Why is it so?

But some questions please..

In JFK for instance.. there seems to be one guy doing approach and one guy doing final apporach for all those planes. Is that how it is? In the movie pushing tin and in the docos ive seen on utube this week i thought there was a whole bunker full of guys directing planes. Are we missing feeds? (not that i'm complaining dave, just wondering)

Also, has the antiquated technology that i have read about in the new york area been updated? Is it getting any easier for those guys?

Do all airports have ground clearance controllers? like JFK?

And at the end of the controllers commands he might throw in a dead pan good day or good night. Is that a pleasantry? i thought it was code at first because it is delivered so flat. do they have to do that? i dont see the point.

and can someone please re post the controller yelling at the iberia to stop. you guys know what i mean!  smiley

and any feed on singapore airport? i can hear planes taking off and landing right now.. how cool it would be to hear the pilots and controllers too  cool

thanks ppl.. keep up the good work
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roops
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« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2007, 10:40:24 AM »

oh oh oh! and one more..

what's to stop idiots or terrorists (if there's a difference) from getting one of these radio themselves and giving flight directives that could lead to something bad happen?

ok.. no more questions for now
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Gecko1
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« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2007, 12:14:11 PM »

The link to that Iberia clip is here.

http://www.liveatc.net/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2186.0;attach=737
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Gecko1
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« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2007, 12:20:32 PM »

Next, JFK has approach, final vector, delivery, ground, tower, CAMRN sector, ROBER sector, satellites, and departure. Not to mention the entire bunker of people providing radar and TRACON support. LiveATC provides all of the channels I mentioned.
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Gecko1
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« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2007, 12:26:10 PM »

And yes, the "Good day"s and other pleasantries are just that, pleasantries. You should listen to the audio clips in the forum. There are many more pleasantries, occasional idle chatting, and the rare fooling around. Sometimes they get angry too.
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digger
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« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2007, 01:07:05 PM »

If you'd lke to know what the FAA thinks of such pleasantries, read this article, and be surprised that you hear any at all:http://themainbang.typepad.com/blog/2007/05/revenge_of_the_.html


Here's a link to one of the documnets referenced in the article:http://themainbang.typepad.com/blog/files/NoMoreMr.NiceGuy1.pdf
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2007, 01:37:27 PM »

what's to stop idiots or terrorists (if there's a difference) from getting one of these radio themselves and giving flight directives that could lead to something bad happen?

While this sounds plausible in a b-movie sort of way (the movie Die Hard 2 comes immediately to mind), the reality is that there are many other barriers that would prevent a pilot from actually flying  a complete sequence of vectors that would put the aircraft in jeopardy. 

First, there is the fact that pilots recognize the controller's voice, if only long enough that had a third party attempted to issue an instruction it would raise a flag in the pilot's mind that something has changed. 

Secondly, the so-called terrorist would have to have a radio/tower powerful enough to be able to transmit clearly.  A simple aviation handheld radio based on the ground might be able to receive clearly, but transmitting clearly is another story entirely.

Thirdly, assuming a pilot blindly decided to follow the instruction, the pilot would read the instruction back as s/he started the process of following it.  At this point the "real" controller would catch this readback and immediately respond if nothing else with a "What are you doing?" that would quickly correct the errant instruction.
 
Fourthly, an ATC impostor would need access to real-time radar data in order to issue believable instructions that would result in either a mid-air or controlled flight into terrain.  While there are ways to do this, it is not as simple as pulling up a website and getting the data.   However, since US-based commercial aircraft have both TCAS (traffic collision) and TWAS (terrain warning) systems on board, this type of accident would be very unlikely.

And finally, pilots are the ultimate responsibility for the safety of the flight.  Thus, assuming the very unlikely event that the impostor were able to get away with one or more instructions that lead an aircraft into some type of dangerous scenario, the pilots have enough on-board systems to provide a real-time situational picture surrounding the aircraft.  Couple that with the pilot's authority to "UNABLE" any command that might put the aircraft in danger, and you have a very poor method for attempting to cause harm to a flight simply by acting like a controller on the frequency.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
MathFox
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« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2007, 02:10:40 PM »

Do all airports have ground clearance controllers? like JFK?

and any feed on singapore airport? i can hear planes taking off and landing right now.. how cool it would be to hear the pilots and controllers too  cool

There are whole stretches of "uncontrolled" airspace where pilots have to rely on their own observation. ATC is available in areas with significant commercial (or military) traffic. In general the number of "positions" depends on the amount of work available for the controllers: more planes is more controllers. Big hubs like JFK tend to have lots of positions (combining positions during the night), smaller airports have only one or two. Airstrips without regular traffic may be remotely operated.

FAQ: All ATC feeds are provided by volunteers. It depends on the situation what feeds he (legally and technically) can provide.
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Miyridian
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« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2007, 03:18:09 PM »

If you'd lke to know what the FAA thinks of such pleasantries, read this article, and be surprised that you hear any at all:http://themainbang.typepad.com/blog/2007/05/revenge_of_the_.html


Here's a link to one of the documnets referenced in the article:http://themainbang.typepad.com/blog/files/NoMoreMr.NiceGuy1.pdf

 shocked Something is wrong in this world when you get called out for just being an agreeable person. Anyway, if the FAA thinks this is worthy of a letter, I'd like to see what they think of the pleasantries (and not-so-pleasantries) that come out of JFK.
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janetva.net
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« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2007, 01:49:21 AM »

I am a Amateur Radio Operator  (KB6HLM)

And I am APPALLED by this quote !!

THIS IS COMPLETELY UN TRUE!!!!  as it is well outside the amateur radio bands


Sorry Dave but I had to speak up on this one as it hit a nerv with me sad



Well, as I remember, an idiot was caught a few years back giving bogus vectors. They were given something like fifty counts of attempted murder for all the lives they endangered. It is either illegal or extremely foolish, or both, to transmit on an air traffic control station. The only people who legally have the capacity to do so are licensed amateur radio operators, and they have been trained not to. So there is no way for it to be legal to transmit on ATC. If you are not a ham radio operator, you are not allowed to transmit on those channels at all, and if you are licensed and do transmit maliciously, the FCC will likely void your licence, so there.


http://audio.liveatc.net:8012/klas.m3u
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MathFox
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The Flying Fox


« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2007, 05:42:52 AM »

If you are a HAM, you know how difficult it is to build your own transmitter; you should also know how to modify the schematics to transmit in a specific band... Yes it is all possible, but a licensed operator will not try to "play ATC" with real planes.
It's easier to get a second hand air band tranceiver from a store specialised in aircraft electronics. Business jets and other GA are equipped with the exact radio you need! (As others pointed out, it's hard to send bogus instructions without being noted. The chance of being caught is nearly 100%.)
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Gecko1
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« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2007, 01:47:41 PM »

I am a Amateur Radio Operator  (KB6HLM)

And I am APPALLED by this quote !!

THIS IS COMPLETELY UN TRUE!!!!  as it is well outside the amateur radio bands
Well don't overreact. I was referring to the tech savvy malefactors, also known as hackers, who like to access or transmit on regulated bands (cellular, atc, respectably) and may or may not have a licence. I wasn't sure if hams were allowed to transmit on ATC. Maybe the Extra class? Perhaps you could cool down and enlighten me, Mr. Brown.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2007, 02:01:48 PM by Gecko1 » Logged
janetva.net
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« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2007, 06:59:09 AM »

FYI Gecko


I don't think I am overreacting

I only wanted to point out that part of your quote is untrue and it maybe misleading to the reader so let me make myself more clear

"The only people who legally have the capacity to do so are licensed amateur radio operators"

This is not true!!

"So there is no way for it to be legal to transmit on ATC. If you are not a ham radio operator"

And this as well is not true!

"I wasn't sure if hams were allowed to transmit on ATC. Maybe the Extra class?"

NO WAY !!!

"Perhaps you could cool down and enlighten me"

Hemmm well I was not heated up (lol)

MathFox Reply

I have no comment (self explanatory) smiley smiley but thanks for your reply

Here are the FCC frequency allocations for the Amateur Radio Service http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/allocate.html#17

There you will find no privileges in the 118 to 136 band. there are however some HF bands the fall very close to the aircraft USB frequency's that are still in use today



Thank you and 73s
« Last Edit: June 03, 2007, 07:44:00 AM by janetva.net » Logged

roops
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« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2007, 07:43:03 AM »

ok ok.. so what would happen then if our terrorist got his hands on one of these radios and just held down the talk button (i guess that's not the proper name.. but you know what i mean).

that would be more dangerous than bogus vectors wouldn't it? if nobody could talk to anybody?
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Gecko1
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« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2007, 11:07:43 AM »

Sorry, maybe I was overreacting. embarassed
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