Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
June 27, 2016, 01:49:48 AM
Home Help Login Register      
News: Check out: Air Race Classic 2016


+  LiveATC Discussion Forums
|-+  Air Traffic Monitoring
| |-+  Listener Forum (Moderators: dave, RonR)
| | |-+  bring me up to speed!
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Go Down Print
Author Topic: bring me up to speed!  (Read 14428 times)
roops
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3


« on: May 30, 2007, 10:30:05 AM »

please!

it's been less than a week since i stumbled elsewhere on the internet onto an mp3 of the, it seems, infamous Arnie sorting out a mess at JFK. I have no idea why it sparked such an interest in me! Subsequent searches have led me here and to listening to countless other tapes and feeds since then. Fascinating stuff. Why is it so?

But some questions please..

In JFK for instance.. there seems to be one guy doing approach and one guy doing final apporach for all those planes. Is that how it is? In the movie pushing tin and in the docos ive seen on utube this week i thought there was a whole bunker full of guys directing planes. Are we missing feeds? (not that i'm complaining dave, just wondering)

Also, has the antiquated technology that i have read about in the new york area been updated? Is it getting any easier for those guys?

Do all airports have ground clearance controllers? like JFK?

And at the end of the controllers commands he might throw in a dead pan good day or good night. Is that a pleasantry? i thought it was code at first because it is delivered so flat. do they have to do that? i dont see the point.

and can someone please re post the controller yelling at the iberia to stop. you guys know what i mean!  smiley

and any feed on singapore airport? i can hear planes taking off and landing right now.. how cool it would be to hear the pilots and controllers too  cool

thanks ppl.. keep up the good work
Logged
roops
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3


« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2007, 10:40:24 AM »

oh oh oh! and one more..

what's to stop idiots or terrorists (if there's a difference) from getting one of these radio themselves and giving flight directives that could lead to something bad happen?

ok.. no more questions for now
Logged
Gecko1
Guest
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2007, 12:14:11 PM »

The link to that Iberia clip is here.

http://www.liveatc.net/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2186.0;attach=737
Logged
Gecko1
Guest
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2007, 12:20:32 PM »

Next, JFK has approach, final vector, delivery, ground, tower, CAMRN sector, ROBER sector, satellites, and departure. Not to mention the entire bunker of people providing radar and TRACON support. LiveATC provides all of the channels I mentioned.
Logged
Gecko1
Guest
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2007, 12:26:10 PM »

And yes, the "Good day"s and other pleasantries are just that, pleasantries. You should listen to the audio clips in the forum. There are many more pleasantries, occasional idle chatting, and the rare fooling around. Sometimes they get angry too.
Logged
digger
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 281


« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2007, 01:07:05 PM »

If you'd lke to know what the FAA thinks of such pleasantries, read this article, and be surprised that you hear any at all:http://themainbang.typepad.com/blog/2007/05/revenge_of_the_.html


Here's a link to one of the documnets referenced in the article:http://themainbang.typepad.com/blog/files/NoMoreMr.NiceGuy1.pdf
Logged
KSYR-pjr
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1722



« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2007, 01:37:27 PM »

what's to stop idiots or terrorists (if there's a difference) from getting one of these radio themselves and giving flight directives that could lead to something bad happen?

While this sounds plausible in a b-movie sort of way (the movie Die Hard 2 comes immediately to mind), the reality is that there are many other barriers that would prevent a pilot from actually flying  a complete sequence of vectors that would put the aircraft in jeopardy. 

First, there is the fact that pilots recognize the controller's voice, if only long enough that had a third party attempted to issue an instruction it would raise a flag in the pilot's mind that something has changed. 

Secondly, the so-called terrorist would have to have a radio/tower powerful enough to be able to transmit clearly.  A simple aviation handheld radio based on the ground might be able to receive clearly, but transmitting clearly is another story entirely.

Thirdly, assuming a pilot blindly decided to follow the instruction, the pilot would read the instruction back as s/he started the process of following it.  At this point the "real" controller would catch this readback and immediately respond if nothing else with a "What are you doing?" that would quickly correct the errant instruction.
 
Fourthly, an ATC impostor would need access to real-time radar data in order to issue believable instructions that would result in either a mid-air or controlled flight into terrain.  While there are ways to do this, it is not as simple as pulling up a website and getting the data.   However, since US-based commercial aircraft have both TCAS (traffic collision) and TWAS (terrain warning) systems on board, this type of accident would be very unlikely.

And finally, pilots are the ultimate responsibility for the safety of the flight.  Thus, assuming the very unlikely event that the impostor were able to get away with one or more instructions that lead an aircraft into some type of dangerous scenario, the pilots have enough on-board systems to provide a real-time situational picture surrounding the aircraft.  Couple that with the pilot's authority to "UNABLE" any command that might put the aircraft in danger, and you have a very poor method for attempting to cause harm to a flight simply by acting like a controller on the frequency.
Logged

Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
MathFox
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 262


The Flying Fox


« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2007, 02:10:40 PM »

Do all airports have ground clearance controllers? like JFK?

and any feed on singapore airport? i can hear planes taking off and landing right now.. how cool it would be to hear the pilots and controllers too  cool

There are whole stretches of "uncontrolled" airspace where pilots have to rely on their own observation. ATC is available in areas with significant commercial (or military) traffic. In general the number of "positions" depends on the amount of work available for the controllers: more planes is more controllers. Big hubs like JFK tend to have lots of positions (combining positions during the night), smaller airports have only one or two. Airstrips without regular traffic may be remotely operated.

FAQ: All ATC feeds are provided by volunteers. It depends on the situation what feeds he (legally and technically) can provide.
Logged
Miyridian
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 30


« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2007, 03:18:09 PM »

If you'd lke to know what the FAA thinks of such pleasantries, read this article, and be surprised that you hear any at all:http://themainbang.typepad.com/blog/2007/05/revenge_of_the_.html


Here's a link to one of the documnets referenced in the article:http://themainbang.typepad.com/blog/files/NoMoreMr.NiceGuy1.pdf

 shocked Something is wrong in this world when you get called out for just being an agreeable person. Anyway, if the FAA thinks this is worthy of a letter, I'd like to see what they think of the pleasantries (and not-so-pleasantries) that come out of JFK.
Logged
janetva.net
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 39



WWW
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2007, 01:49:21 AM »

I am a Amateur Radio Operator  (KB6HLM)

And I am APPALLED by this quote !!

THIS IS COMPLETELY UN TRUE!!!!  as it is well outside the amateur radio bands


Sorry Dave but I had to speak up on this one as it hit a nerv with me sad



Well, as I remember, an idiot was caught a few years back giving bogus vectors. They were given something like fifty counts of attempted murder for all the lives they endangered. It is either illegal or extremely foolish, or both, to transmit on an air traffic control station. The only people who legally have the capacity to do so are licensed amateur radio operators, and they have been trained not to. So there is no way for it to be legal to transmit on ATC. If you are not a ham radio operator, you are not allowed to transmit on those channels at all, and if you are licensed and do transmit maliciously, the FCC will likely void your licence, so there.


http://audio.liveatc.net:8012/klas.m3u
Logged

MathFox
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 262


The Flying Fox


« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2007, 05:42:52 AM »

If you are a HAM, you know how difficult it is to build your own transmitter; you should also know how to modify the schematics to transmit in a specific band... Yes it is all possible, but a licensed operator will not try to "play ATC" with real planes.
It's easier to get a second hand air band tranceiver from a store specialised in aircraft electronics. Business jets and other GA are equipped with the exact radio you need! (As others pointed out, it's hard to send bogus instructions without being noted. The chance of being caught is nearly 100%.)
Logged
Gecko1
Guest
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2007, 01:47:41 PM »

I am a Amateur Radio Operator  (KB6HLM)

And I am APPALLED by this quote !!

THIS IS COMPLETELY UN TRUE!!!!  as it is well outside the amateur radio bands
Well don't overreact. I was referring to the tech savvy malefactors, also known as hackers, who like to access or transmit on regulated bands (cellular, atc, respectably) and may or may not have a licence. I wasn't sure if hams were allowed to transmit on ATC. Maybe the Extra class? Perhaps you could cool down and enlighten me, Mr. Brown.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2007, 02:01:48 PM by Gecko1 » Logged
janetva.net
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 39



WWW
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2007, 06:59:09 AM »

FYI Gecko


I don't think I am overreacting

I only wanted to point out that part of your quote is untrue and it maybe misleading to the reader so let me make myself more clear

"The only people who legally have the capacity to do so are licensed amateur radio operators"

This is not true!!

"So there is no way for it to be legal to transmit on ATC. If you are not a ham radio operator"

And this as well is not true!

"I wasn't sure if hams were allowed to transmit on ATC. Maybe the Extra class?"

NO WAY !!!

"Perhaps you could cool down and enlighten me"

Hemmm well I was not heated up (lol)

MathFox Reply

I have no comment (self explanatory) smiley smiley but thanks for your reply

Here are the FCC frequency allocations for the Amateur Radio Service http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/allocate.html#17

There you will find no privileges in the 118 to 136 band. there are however some HF bands the fall very close to the aircraft USB frequency's that are still in use today



Thank you and 73s
« Last Edit: June 03, 2007, 07:44:00 AM by janetva.net » Logged

roops
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3


« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2007, 07:43:03 AM »

ok ok.. so what would happen then if our terrorist got his hands on one of these radios and just held down the talk button (i guess that's not the proper name.. but you know what i mean).

that would be more dangerous than bogus vectors wouldn't it? if nobody could talk to anybody?
Logged
Gecko1
Guest
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2007, 11:07:43 AM »

Sorry, maybe I was overreacting. embarassed
Logged
Gecko1
Guest
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2007, 11:34:11 AM »

ok ok.. so what would happen then if our terrorist got his hands on one of these radios and just held down the talk button (i guess that's not the proper name.. but you know what i mean).

that would be more dangerous than bogus vectors wouldn't it? if nobody could talk to anybody?


NA it happens all the time its called a stuck mike and traffic will go on as usual

Moving on...
Is the ATC bandwidth wide enough to allow for simultaneous transmitting? I know some radios, CB for instance, just blank out if someone nearby has a stuck mike. You are at their mercy until they realize the problem.
Logged
KSYR-pjr
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1722



« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2007, 01:09:53 PM »

I know some radios, CB for instance, just blank out if someone nearby has a stuck mike. You are at their mercy until they realize the problem.

Same with aviation transmissions.  For a receiving radio, a nearby stuck mike would block out all other transmissions from those aircraft and/or ATC that are further away than the stuck mike.   If this remained a problem, pilots and ATC would switch to either another frequency used by ATC (tower if ground is blocked, ground if tower is blocked, other approach sector, or even the guard frequency (121.50).
Logged

Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
cvgtowerguy
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1


« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2007, 05:23:26 PM »

Roops here is a site I think you will like

http://www.airnav.com
Logged
RV1
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 104


« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2007, 08:03:06 PM »

The most recent occurance with a stuck mic while I was in the tower was an instructor and a student in a cherokee. They went out to the midfield intersection, did their runup and checklist all the while with their mic stuck on ground freq, we heard it all. When they were ready to take off, they dutifully called me on local freq and requested clnc for take off. The instructor then stated that the tower must be busy and that's the reason they haven't received a response. This went on for about 10 minutes, with numerous a/c taxing past him and departing or arriving. My transceiver was able to override his radio so I was able to work the other planes. The air carrier pilots thought this was quite amusing as they would go past him and he would be telling his student "See, there's another one, that's probably why we haven't been cleared yet."
     It is possible for a terrorist to 'lock up a freq' but in most cases he would have to have a VERY powerful and well located transmitter to do much damage. Actually, you can do more damage with a backhoe in a ditch than a terrorist on a radio.
Logged

Kick butt, take no names, they dont matter anyways
Gecko1
Guest
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2007, 08:06:06 PM »

Roops here is a site I think you will like

http://www.airnav.com

I go there to get my airport info. It's a useful site. Need to know the price of jet fuel at your destination? They have that too.
Logged
digger
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 281


« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2007, 04:30:58 PM »

Quote
Secondly, the so-called terrorist would have to have a radio/tower powerful enough to be able to transmit clearly.  A simple aviation handheld radio based on the ground might be able to receive clearly, but transmitting clearly is another story entirely.

Not to disagree in general, but to this specific point--don't forget that there are plenty of radios, of good quality, sitting in airplanes all over the place. And some of them are flying in airplanes, right now. Not that terrorists would ever think of using airplanes for bad intent...

The threat is real enough, at least to those writing the regulations, that 7110.65 includes language on dealing with such transmissions:http://web.archive.org/web/20010709185057/www.faa.gov/ATpubs/ATC/Chp2/atc0204.html See paragraph 2-4-6.

Quote
Actually, you can do more damage with a backhoe in a ditch than a terrorist on a radio.

Hey! I resemble that remark!   shocked

 wink
Logged
RV1
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 104


« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2007, 09:42:28 AM »

To elaborate on the 'backhoe in a ditch'. Left home one day and noticed several workers with a backhoe working near the road. Nothing unusual about that. Went to work at XXX center and literally saw people running from sector to sector and area to area. Asked what was going on, the answer was lost half the frequencies in the facility. Six areas, seven sectors per area, at least one freq per sector = 42 freqs and we just lost 21 of those. How? Someone digging with a backhoe somewhere hit the lines for the transceivers.
Logged

Kick butt, take no names, they dont matter anyways
digger
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 281


« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2007, 03:09:40 PM »

I believe it.

We can do lots of damage in a hurry.   grin

Not to get off topic, but I've been on site when another contractor had to dig beneath a main fiber optic telephone line that ran halfway across Pennsylvania. It was in conduit that was made of creosted wood. If you didn't know what it was, you'd have thought you dug up an old railroad tie. Fortunately, everybody knew exactly where it was, and there were no problems, but the phone company engineer explained that, in addition to the repairs, the excavator could be backcharged for any loss of phone company revenue due to that line being out of service. the particular line in question was worth about $50,000, a minute. shocked I wonder what they charge for lost ATC frequencies?

Your example is one of the reasons I think it's such a bad idea to consolidate facilities the way the FAA is trying to do. One of the paths to safety in aviation has always involved adding greater redundancy in crtical systems. Consolidations mean more eggs in one larger basket. Who knows what critcal wire us backhoe guys are going to rip out next?

Back on topic...

Quote
I am sure that there are safe guards against these things and remember the pilots are flying the planes not the air traffic control so even if someone was to attempt this it would play little or no effect on the pilot flying the aircraft so therefor it would be a lost cause to the )(&)^#+))*^^#@%$^&%  well you get my point !

It might be difficult to actually get a pilot to actually do something that would cause an accident, but I'm sure the controllers here would agree, any given transmission they make might very well be critical. The odds are long, but an interfering transmission could precipitate a disaster.
Logged
RV1
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 104


« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2007, 08:02:23 PM »

I asked a tech why there weren't backup lines to the transceivers and he said there were. They used to be run on seperate lines but that was too expensive so both the main and the backup were run on the same line! Recently a backhoe operator was removed from his seat when he struck a power line that was improperly marked, this knocked out the commercial power to the airport and the tracon.
     If a terrorist was to monitor the freqs enough, perhaps be on Vatsim some, learn the 'lingo' he could conceivably tell a specific aircraft, by callsign and proper phraseology, to do something. Normally, the greatest threat for this would be near an airport where it seems that airplanes like to congregate...
Logged

Kick butt, take no names, they dont matter anyways
Himerzi
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 60


« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2007, 10:51:26 PM »

Wow, imagine the delays cause with 10 min. separation.      http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6732813.stm
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!