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Author Topic: bring me up to speed!  (Read 9470 times)
Gecko1
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« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2007, 11:34:11 AM »

ok ok.. so what would happen then if our terrorist got his hands on one of these radios and just held down the talk button (i guess that's not the proper name.. but you know what i mean).

that would be more dangerous than bogus vectors wouldn't it? if nobody could talk to anybody?


NA it happens all the time its called a stuck mike and traffic will go on as usual

Moving on...
Is the ATC bandwidth wide enough to allow for simultaneous transmitting? I know some radios, CB for instance, just blank out if someone nearby has a stuck mike. You are at their mercy until they realize the problem.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2007, 01:09:53 PM »

I know some radios, CB for instance, just blank out if someone nearby has a stuck mike. You are at their mercy until they realize the problem.

Same with aviation transmissions.  For a receiving radio, a nearby stuck mike would block out all other transmissions from those aircraft and/or ATC that are further away than the stuck mike.   If this remained a problem, pilots and ATC would switch to either another frequency used by ATC (tower if ground is blocked, ground if tower is blocked, other approach sector, or even the guard frequency (121.50).
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
cvgtowerguy
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« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2007, 05:23:26 PM »

Roops here is a site I think you will like

http://www.airnav.com
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RV1
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« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2007, 08:03:06 PM »

The most recent occurance with a stuck mic while I was in the tower was an instructor and a student in a cherokee. They went out to the midfield intersection, did their runup and checklist all the while with their mic stuck on ground freq, we heard it all. When they were ready to take off, they dutifully called me on local freq and requested clnc for take off. The instructor then stated that the tower must be busy and that's the reason they haven't received a response. This went on for about 10 minutes, with numerous a/c taxing past him and departing or arriving. My transceiver was able to override his radio so I was able to work the other planes. The air carrier pilots thought this was quite amusing as they would go past him and he would be telling his student "See, there's another one, that's probably why we haven't been cleared yet."
     It is possible for a terrorist to 'lock up a freq' but in most cases he would have to have a VERY powerful and well located transmitter to do much damage. Actually, you can do more damage with a backhoe in a ditch than a terrorist on a radio.
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Kick butt, take no names, they dont matter anyways
Gecko1
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« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2007, 08:06:06 PM »

Roops here is a site I think you will like

http://www.airnav.com

I go there to get my airport info. It's a useful site. Need to know the price of jet fuel at your destination? They have that too.
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digger
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« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2007, 04:30:58 PM »

Quote
Secondly, the so-called terrorist would have to have a radio/tower powerful enough to be able to transmit clearly.  A simple aviation handheld radio based on the ground might be able to receive clearly, but transmitting clearly is another story entirely.

Not to disagree in general, but to this specific point--don't forget that there are plenty of radios, of good quality, sitting in airplanes all over the place. And some of them are flying in airplanes, right now. Not that terrorists would ever think of using airplanes for bad intent...

The threat is real enough, at least to those writing the regulations, that 7110.65 includes language on dealing with such transmissions:http://web.archive.org/web/20010709185057/www.faa.gov/ATpubs/ATC/Chp2/atc0204.html See paragraph 2-4-6.

Quote
Actually, you can do more damage with a backhoe in a ditch than a terrorist on a radio.

Hey! I resemble that remark!   shocked

 wink
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RV1
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« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2007, 09:42:28 AM »

To elaborate on the 'backhoe in a ditch'. Left home one day and noticed several workers with a backhoe working near the road. Nothing unusual about that. Went to work at XXX center and literally saw people running from sector to sector and area to area. Asked what was going on, the answer was lost half the frequencies in the facility. Six areas, seven sectors per area, at least one freq per sector = 42 freqs and we just lost 21 of those. How? Someone digging with a backhoe somewhere hit the lines for the transceivers.
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Kick butt, take no names, they dont matter anyways
digger
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« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2007, 03:09:40 PM »

I believe it.

We can do lots of damage in a hurry.   grin

Not to get off topic, but I've been on site when another contractor had to dig beneath a main fiber optic telephone line that ran halfway across Pennsylvania. It was in conduit that was made of creosted wood. If you didn't know what it was, you'd have thought you dug up an old railroad tie. Fortunately, everybody knew exactly where it was, and there were no problems, but the phone company engineer explained that, in addition to the repairs, the excavator could be backcharged for any loss of phone company revenue due to that line being out of service. the particular line in question was worth about $50,000, a minute. shocked I wonder what they charge for lost ATC frequencies?

Your example is one of the reasons I think it's such a bad idea to consolidate facilities the way the FAA is trying to do. One of the paths to safety in aviation has always involved adding greater redundancy in crtical systems. Consolidations mean more eggs in one larger basket. Who knows what critcal wire us backhoe guys are going to rip out next?

Back on topic...

Quote
I am sure that there are safe guards against these things and remember the pilots are flying the planes not the air traffic control so even if someone was to attempt this it would play little or no effect on the pilot flying the aircraft so therefor it would be a lost cause to the )(&)^#+))*^^#@%$^&%  well you get my point !

It might be difficult to actually get a pilot to actually do something that would cause an accident, but I'm sure the controllers here would agree, any given transmission they make might very well be critical. The odds are long, but an interfering transmission could precipitate a disaster.
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RV1
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« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2007, 08:02:23 PM »

I asked a tech why there weren't backup lines to the transceivers and he said there were. They used to be run on seperate lines but that was too expensive so both the main and the backup were run on the same line! Recently a backhoe operator was removed from his seat when he struck a power line that was improperly marked, this knocked out the commercial power to the airport and the tracon.
     If a terrorist was to monitor the freqs enough, perhaps be on Vatsim some, learn the 'lingo' he could conceivably tell a specific aircraft, by callsign and proper phraseology, to do something. Normally, the greatest threat for this would be near an airport where it seems that airplanes like to congregate...
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Kick butt, take no names, they dont matter anyways
Himerzi
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« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2007, 10:51:26 PM »

Wow, imagine the delays cause with 10 min. separation.      http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6732813.stm
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janetva.net
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WWW
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2007, 02:57:28 AM »

Now you see them now you don't, Yes I deleted all my replys on this subject, looking back on them I now feel it was inappropriate to respond to such a inappropriate subject !


Apologizes to all  sad
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