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Author Topic: Cleared To Land  (Read 7819 times)
michaelt747
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« on: December 26, 2005, 06:06:33 PM »

I was listening to the Boston Tower feed today, and i was wondering, what constitutes a "AIRLINE XXX Cleared to Land Runway 33" Huh  The reason i ask, is sometimes, the controller will say cleared to land number 3 (which means that plane is third in line) but other times, after the pilot calls the tower, the controller will say "CONTINUE" or "EXPECT A LATE LANDING CLEARANCE"  --so that is pretty much my question

thanx

Michael
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Jason
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« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2005, 06:28:38 PM »

Quote from: michaelt747
I was listening to the Boston Tower feed today, and i was wondering, what constitutes a "AIRLINE XXX Cleared to Land Runway 33" Huh  The reason i ask, is sometimes, the controller will say cleared to land number 3 (which means that plane is third in line) but other times, after the pilot calls the tower, the controller will say "CONTINUE" or "EXPECT A LATE LANDING CLEARANCE"  --so that is pretty much my question

thanx

Michael


Michael,

Towers usually issue "continue" or "continue inbound on the ILS" because they are working with another aircraft or they do not currently know their sequence with other aircraft.  If the aircraft calls in between the tower instructing another aircraft to 'taxi into position and hold' and 'cleared for takeoff' the tower might delay that a/c's landing clearance until he finishes instructions for another aircraft.

Jason
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6000&Airborne
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« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2005, 12:33:27 PM »

If I remember correctly, one reason they do not need to add the sequenced number is if they are already given the sequence by approach.
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davolijj
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« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2005, 01:00:43 PM »

From the Good Book (7110.65P)
Note the note  rolleyes  at the bottom.

3-10-5. LANDING CLEARANCE

a. Issue landing clearance. Restate the landing runway whenever more than one runway is active, or an instrument approach is being conducted to a closed runway.

PHRASEOLOGY-
CLEARED TO LAND,

or

RUNWAY (designator) CLEARED TO LAND.


b. "USN NOT APPLICABLE." Inform the closest aircraft that is cleared to land, touch-and-go, stop-and-go, or unrestricted low approaches when there is traffic holding on the same runway.

EXAMPLE-
"Delta One, cleared to land. Traffic holding in position."

or

"Delta One, runway one eight, cleared to land. Traffic holding in position."

NOTE-
A clearance to land means that appropriate separation on the landing runway will be ensured. A landing clearance does not relieve the pilot from compliance with any previously issued restriction.

3-10-6. ANTICIPATING SEPARATION


Landing clearance to succeeding aircraft in a landing sequence need not be withheld if you observe the positions of the aircraft and determine that prescribed runway separation will exist when the aircraft cross the landing threshold. Issue traffic information to the succeeding aircraft if not previously reported and appropriate traffic holding in position or departing prior to their arrival.

EXAMPLE-
"American Two Forty-Five cleared to land, number two following United Boeing
Seven-Thirty-Seven two mile final, traffic will depart prior to your arrival."



NOTE-Landing sequence number is optional at tower facilities where arrivals are sequenced by the approach control.
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Regards
JD
Jonathan_tcu
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« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2005, 05:08:22 PM »

Here in northern Ontario, there are periods of heavy traffic where, no matter what conditions--be it VFR or IFR--, you'll get a stack of 2, then 3, then 4 and as much as 5 aircraft on the approach.  Within say... 40 minutes, the moment they see the airport in site, they cancel IFR with Ctr, set up an approach and end up doing extended circuits or downwinds in our airspace.  Otherwise, you'll hear holding clearances for up to an hour with final approaches in 10 minute intervals to land.  With our non radar environment, aircrafts must hold at lower than 10 000 feet if they require to intercept the rwy 3 localizer via RIDIK fix.
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FSS wannabe, just curious about stuff, that's all.
Scrapper
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« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2005, 06:06:04 PM »

Although the information previously stated is correct, canadian and american ways of doing things can differ... one thing I noticed that was not correct in the original post though is that an aircraft will only be "cleared to land" (using that phraseology) when it is ACTUALLY cleared to land... all other times, those words will be avoided... so while you may hear "winds 320 at 10, runway 33L, cleared to land", you'll never hear "cleared to land, number 2, or number 3..." instead you'll hear "winds 310 at 10, runway 33L, you're number 2" usually (but not always) followed by why you're number two (ie. you're number 2 behind a company 737 on 3 mile final". then they will only say "runway 33L, cleared to land" when it's your turn and the runway is clear... you'll never get more than one person cleared on the same runway at the same time...

the only other thing I can think of is that even if you're first in line you may not be cleared to land if the tower plans to release someone off the same runway ahead of you... in that case you'll be told the wind info and that you're number one, and if they have time, they'll tell you why you don't have clearance yet... something like this (may differ btw us and canada...)

"Montreal tower, it's Air canada 345 with you on ILS runway 6L"
"Air Canada 345, bonjouur, you're number 1". then they'll release the guy on the runway"
"Air Canada 236, winds are xxx at xx, call departure when airborne, cleared for takeoff 6L" and once the runway is clear...
"Air Canada 345, winds are xxx at xx, cleared to land runway 6L.

(boy I'm feeling chatty this evening... I haven't bene here in a while.. hehe... too much holiday drinking and turkey binging... hehe...
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PHL Approach
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« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2005, 08:09:47 PM »

Quote from: Scrapper
you'll never get more than one person cleared on the same runway at the same time...

the only other thing I can think of is that even if you're first in line you may not be cleared to land if the tower plans to release someone off the same runway ahead of you... in that case you'll be told the wind info and that you're number one, and if they have time, they'll tell you why you don't have clearance yet... something like this (may differ btw us and canada


Yea, I believe that is true in Europe. But not the US, it is common to hear several landing clearances issued with say 3 aircraft on final.

Also, about the instructions/advisories coming after the landing clearance. I have learned that they come before the clearance. I think it's interesting to see that the .65 has it the opposite way I learned and the way I've heard local controllers issue their instructions e.g.

"Air Wisconsin 1731, Philly Tower, following company traffic on a 2 mile final, additional traffic to your 2 o'clock, a heavy airbus inside the Navy Yard, he'll pass the intersection prior to your arrival. Winds 300 at 11, runway 35 cleared to land"
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Kalpazan
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« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2005, 03:08:12 AM »

I've seen a movie of a Finnair MD-11 that was "cleared to land" on JFK while an aircraft was lined up on the same runway for takeoff. It did not manage to departure immediately for some reason and the MD-11 was issued "go around" shortly after it passed the DH.
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LBBG - Burgas, Bulgaria Feeder
6000&Airborne
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« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2005, 08:21:57 AM »

The thing that lets us get away with clearing a few aircraft to land at the same time is that great paragraph about anticipating separation.
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Scrapper
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« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2005, 10:19:14 AM »

I specifically listened to an american TRACON yesterday (we call them terminal control units) and noticed for the first time that they do in fact do that... makes sense now that I think of it... but I'm fairly certain we don't do it the same way... the closest I've seen to this in canada is to issue a landing clearance to an aircraft while a departing one is still on the runway: "WestJet 434, check the departing airbus rolling, cleared to land runway 23", and it was in visual circumstances so that if the wesjet notices that the aircraft doesn't takeoff (ie. aborts the takeoff roll, etc.) they can initiate a missed approach.  However, I do recall seeing that rule now in a canadian publication as well, that there is no requirement to wait for a vacant runway to clear another aircraft to land on that runway.  I've just never seen it applied I guess... any nav canada tower controllers out there who can confirm or deny this? I'm more familiar with the IFR side of controlling... more related to the job I do at sea (although only loosely related... things are completely different at sea...)
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Lexxx
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« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2005, 08:28:32 AM »

Scrapper

You are correct, we do have different rules here in Canada as relates to landing clearances. We do not clear two or more aircraft to land on the same runway at the same time. I understand the "anticipated" factor, and that these two aircraft have adequate separation, but its been decided that in Canada we don't do this.

When an aircraft gets his landing clearance up here there shouldn't really be anything or anybody between the aircraft and the end of the landing runway. Passing traffic, "check the departing airbus", or "continue with the landing clearance, there's a vehicle crossing at the far end of the runway" is permitted to maintain "flow".

At my airport we have Northwest's feeder airline Mesaba several times a day. After he's sequenced two or three, or whatever, the pilot often comes back with the response "So we're cleared to land?", and everytime it's mentioned the rules are slightly different up here. Not the pilots fault, and I'm guessing they want that clearance out of the way to continue with whatever else the landing checks involve.
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Scrapper
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« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2005, 12:12:37 AM »

Lexx, got you, thanks... but now I am confused again...

I was sitting off the end of one of montreal's runways today during evening rush hour, and actually heard for the first time, what I thought we didn't do in canada... I heard the tower clear a guy to land when he was really number 2 (mind you number one was just passing over my head and flaring on the runway, but he hadn't vacated...) I would have expected the usual "you're number two to an airbus on short final..." followed by the clearance to land once he had told the other guy to taxi off the runway, and ensured he had vacated... so I'm back to square one... I thought we didn't do this... maybe we've just decided not to do this, but it's still legal by manops? (I'm going to look this one up... can you ask around and we'll talk again soon...) where do you work? (send me a private post if you don't want everyone else to know...)

The other thing I was thinking of is that the clearance to land shouldn't affect the rest of the cockpit stuff... the guy talking and waiting on the clearance to land isn't the pilot flying... one pilot flies and the other talks and handles the checklist and the secondary settings (flaps, etc.)... I'm fairly certain that they fly the plane assuming they're going to get clearance, but are always ready for the missed approach if they need it... I'm not a pilot, but I will confirm this with an uncle who I will see in the next couple of days (retired Air Canada pilot... just retired in fact... must suck not to get to fly anymore...)

Gotta go... will do some ressearch and repost in a couple of days...
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TC
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« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2006, 04:05:47 PM »

Quote from: michaelt747
I was listening to the Boston Tower feed today, and i was wondering, what constitutes a "AIRLINE XXX Cleared to Land Runway 33" Huh  The reason i ask, is sometimes, the controller will say cleared to land number 3 (which means that plane is third in line) but other times, after the pilot calls the tower, the controller will say "CONTINUE" or "EXPECT A LATE LANDING CLEARANCE"  --so that is pretty much my question


Michael, in addition to the other points made above, there's also personal preference of the controllers.  Some will not clear someone to land until certain conditions are met, conditions that are unique to that controller.  (e.g. til he's #1, til the departure rolls, til a crossing's completed, etc)  Conversely, some give away landing clearances like they're candy (as one of my coworkers says).  As a tower controller we don't generally have to tell the a/c what # they are because they've already got that from approach.  We absolutely can clear multiple a/c to land.  The "continue" or "roger" you hear is also sometimes because the controllers are in the middle of a relief briefing and rather than interrupt it, a quick Roger or continue will keep the a/c from calling back and repeatedly interrupting the briefing.
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Lexxx
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« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2006, 07:08:48 PM »

Quote
Lexx, got you, thanks... but now I am confused again...

I was sitting off the end of one of montreal's runways today during evening rush hour, and actually heard for the first time, what I thought we didn't do in canada... I heard the tower clear a guy to land when he was really number 2 (mind you number one was just passing over my head and flaring on the runway, but he hadn't vacated...)Gotta go... will do some ressearch and repost in a couple of days...


Scrapper

If you're researching it, the key Manops section is 334.1 B as relates to landing clearances, and reads in part. ".....you determine that the perscribed runway separation will exist.."

So, the question becomes, how do you determine that separation WILL exist? At an airport like YUL or YYZ with no VFR around very much, and nothing but professional pilots, and everyone doing 160 to the marker, the odds are better that aircraft having been adequately separated by the terminal unit, will result in appropriate separation by the time the aircraft gets to the runway, and will allow time for them to exit before the next arrival. If a controller feels comfortable with that, he does have "an out", and can argue that so long as everything works as expected, the runway will be clear by the time the next guy comes along. In reality in Canada it is very rare to see this. At Toronto about half the controllers will clear more than one at the same time with both in the air. Many refuse to.

The controller at YUL you talked about above waited until the first aircraft was actually flaring, so he only felt comfortable at that point. At slightly smaller airports with aircraft of greater speed differentials, it is impossible to know it's "gonna work". The more you assume....well, you know this speech".

Bottom line? Controllers are legally permitted to do it, but it's very uncommon to hear it up here.

Cheers
http://www.ykf.ca
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italian-la(n)d!
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« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2006, 05:48:29 AM »

In Italy we can only clear an airplane to land when the preceeding one has vacated the runway... except for two only airports, where they perform "land-after", with a lot of restrictions.

It seems to live the famous movie "back to the future"!!!
we need to develop our atc!!!

ciao
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all'anima de li mortacci vostri!!!
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