Author Topic: Cleveland Center  (Read 12920 times)

Offline bkeske

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Cleveland Center
« on: June 28, 2009, 07:11:36 PM »
Anyone know what has happened to this feed?

Although the web site states it is 'up', I have not been able to receive any broadcast from the feed for well over a month now. (I have also never been able to get a live feed for the 'Pittsburgh' Cleveland Center which was added a while back).

I searched for any other topics on this, but came up empty.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2009, 07:31:50 PM by bkeske »



Offline PIT

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Re: Cleveland Center
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2009, 11:58:39 AM »
i will check the radio, it turns off sometimes.

Offline JETSFORME

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Re: Cleveland Center
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2009, 05:37:53 PM »
Hi,

    I have noticed the same thing. I really enjoy listening to traffic in the old neighborhood of Cleveland. Both feeds show as active feeds but there is no sound at all coming from the radios. I have tried all players that I have and there is no sound at all coming from the feed's.

                                                                      Chris

Offline bkeske

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Re: Cleveland Center
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2009, 09:12:35 PM »
i will check the radio, it turns off sometimes.

Thanks for checking. I'm still not receiving any transmission from the WPA Cleveland Center frequency.

Offline PIT

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Re: Cleveland Center
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2009, 11:52:09 PM »
sorry i have been really busy with work. ill get to it as soon as i can.

kea001

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Re: Cleveland Center
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2009, 05:04:42 AM »
Best of luck with reconditioning the Cleveland feeds.

There were a couple of really interesting incidents that unfortunately weren't captured. I would have liked to have got my teeth into them.

Expressjet E145 and CommutAir DH8B at Cleveland on Jun 26th 2009, runway incursion and
Southwest B737 and Expressjet E145 at Cleveland on Jun 3rd 2009, runway incursion

both occurred at the hands of a trainee controller.

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=41bf7d5f&opt=1
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 05:06:17 AM by kea001 »

Offline atcman23

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Re: Cleveland Center
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2009, 07:54:42 AM »
That's something else.  The same trainee?  It's not like Cleveland is that complex, someone just needs to look out the window.

And all of this bad news out of Cleveland is not good... I'm heading there!

Offline binky

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Re: Cleveland Center
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2009, 08:04:19 AM »
Just as simple as a radar controller having to just look at their radar screen right?

kea001

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Re: Cleveland Center
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2009, 08:13:43 AM »

And just now the story has made its way to CNN:

"This particular trainee had a total of 11 hours of training in the entire month of June. That's less then an hour a day," said Bob Kerr of the National Air Traffic Controllers Association. "He's brand new; he's going to make mistakes."

The student had completed about 30 percent of his training hours at the position, Kerr said. "He has plenty of time to not only learn from the present situation, but to continue learning and develop into a fine controller in that position."

further on:

The NTSB has launched an investigation, which could take three to nine months given the complexity of the issues involved, NTSB spokesman Peter Knudson said. The supervision of developmental controllers will be among the factors the NTSB will review, he said.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/06/30/ohio.runway.mishaps/index.html
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 08:17:09 AM by kea001 »

Offline atcman23

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Re: Cleveland Center
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2009, 12:24:01 PM »
Just as simple as a radar controller having to just look at their radar screen right?

Not exactly.  But with the two incidents it involved an aircraft positioned at the end of the runway for a full length takeoff and another aircraft at the same runway and an intersection either for an intersection takeoff on that runway or crossing that runway to use an adjacent runway.  One of the first things you do as the local controller is to make sure the runway is clear.  And, it's also kinda obvious that the trainee was probably nervous.  He cleared the aircraft at the end of the runway for a takeoff and not 20 seconds later, a aircraft at an intersection of the same runway to cross that runway.  Of course that's a big no-no, but 20 seconds is not a long time to remember that you cleared an aircraft for takeoff and you can't cross the aircraft at the intersection yet.  And that really comes down to scanning the runway before issuing the clearance to cross.  And from the little experience I have, it's not hard for a newbie on local to not look out the window and spend their time looking at strips or a notepad trying to remember who is where and who wants to go where.  Easy to forget about looking out the window and clear the aircraft without looking.  It's not exactly a good way to start your career but I think the NATCA rep is right in what he said.

Offline w0x0f

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Re: Cleveland Center
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2009, 12:54:58 PM »
That's something else.  The same trainee?  It's not like Cleveland is that complex, someone just needs to look out the window.

And all of this bad news out of Cleveland is not good... I'm heading there!

You sound like you are on the fast track to FAA management.  During the contract negotiations which ended in imposed work rules in 2006, one of the FAA negotiators is famously quoted as saying, and I'll paraphrase, "Any controller who has an operational error either did it on purpose or is just not very good at his job."  The same negotiator made a clerical error later during the talks and was asked, "So what is it, did you do it on purpose or are you just not good at your job?"

Obviously, this person never spent much time in a headset, or they would never make such a ludicrous statement.  You cannot take the human element out of ATC but I hope you never make a mistake.  Assuming that you are human, you will make mistakes.  Hopefully, your instructor is able to catch them before they becomes serious, and once you are checked out you will catch your own errors before it is too late.  Remember this, stay humble, admit your mistakes, and most importantly, learn from them.

w0x0f  

Offline atcman23

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Re: Cleveland Center
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2009, 06:05:20 PM »
FAA management... well that's probably a bad thing!

But you are correct, you cannot take the human element out of it as we're not 110% perfect.  I'll admit I'm not perfect and I'm sure that at some point I'll make an error too during my training and hopefully my trainer or myself will catch those errors before they become serious.  I do admit my mistakes and learn from them pretty well... always have.

And the last contract "negotiation" a few years ago was a pure joke and really screwed things up, which is why training these days isn't as good as it could be.  I am glad to hear that things will hopefully be getting better soon but these negotiations are taking much longer than everyone anticipated.

Do you control at Pittsburgh?  Can't help but notice the sweet avatar you have of PIT tower.

Offline PIT

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Offline w0x0f

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Re: Cleveland Center
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2009, 02:26:05 AM »
FAA management... well that's probably a bad thing!

But you are correct, you cannot take the human element out of it as we're not 110% perfect.  I'll admit I'm not perfect and I'm sure that at some point I'll make an error too during my training and hopefully my trainer or myself will catch those errors before they become serious.  I do admit my mistakes and learn from them pretty well... always have.

And the last contract "negotiation" a few years ago was a pure joke and really screwed things up, which is why training these days isn't as good as it could be.  I am glad to hear that things will hopefully be getting better soon but these negotiations are taking much longer than everyone anticipated.


FAA management is not "probably" a bad thing.  Make no question about it, FAA management is a very bad thing.  Check out the "Best Places to Work" survey.  FAA was #214 out of 216.  https://employees.faa.gov/news/focusfaa/story/?newsId=58552  That pretty much says it all about our "leaders."

The last negotiations were a farce.  The FAA froze hiring until they could impose a B scale salary for new hires.  NATCA was urging the agency to begin hiring back in 2001.  The reasons for this are many.  Traffic volume was down after 9/11, a good time to introduce new trainees into the system.  It takes up to 3 years to train someone to full certification at busier facilities.  It takes a newly certified controller a few years to become a very good controller on their own.  The retirement bubble was going to begin in 2006 (1981 hiring spike + 25 years for first retirement eligibility.) 

Unfortunately for the FAA, the timing of the NATCA contract expiration wasn't on the same timeline, although they did extend the contract in 2002.  They needed to impose a lower pay scale before all the new trainees were hired, so they had to wait until 2006 to begin hiring in earnest.  5 years too late.  NATCA would not sell out the future controllers and FAA did not budge from their original bargaining position, so they imposed the B scale that hopefully will go away when current negotiations are completed.

That is why training is so messed up right now.  There are too many trainees in the system.  The recommended ratio of  trainees to fully certified controllers is 25%.  There are many places over 40% right now.  No good training can be accomplished with that many people.  Instructors are being burned out.  Not to mention the brain drain that has occurred over the past 3 years. So many controllers have retired due to the imposed work rules and mismanagement.

Sorry for the 7500 of this thread.

w0x0f   

Offline atcman23

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Re: Cleveland Center
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2009, 09:01:33 AM »
HAHA 214 out of 216... not very surprising.

But what you just said prety much sums what what I was hearing in school from retired controllers who were teaching us.  And yes, the trainees to certified controller ratio is way, way too high and it is rather scary... especially for me since I'll be in that mix (err... mess really).  But I've heard and read several articles about training at some facilities being rather poor and that there were too many trainees at one time.

But, like you basically summed up, the FAA doesn't learn from their past mistakes.  I just hope things really do improve because if they don't, there are going to be some serious problems that a contract isn't going to be able to fix.