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Author Topic: Controller in trouble for letting child direct air traffic at Kennedy Airport  (Read 32502 times)
retro11
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« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2010, 05:49:01 PM »

yeah the uk evening news also picked up on it shame if this guy lost his job over this ,just a great day out for a wee kid no harm came to anyone what ever happend to freedom of speech !
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emshighway
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« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2010, 06:00:45 PM »

FAA investigating a second incident the next day involving the same controller but a different child. Two transmissions were made.
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Lon
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« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2010, 06:08:07 PM »

The news report I heard about this said it occurred on February 17th, but didn't say what time. Does anyone have the LiveATC.net link for this transmission? I'd like to listen to the whole thing, in context.
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kicket
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« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2010, 08:15:30 PM »

Was this the same controller who was in that legendary recording known as "Bad Day at JFK Ground"?

I'm very new to aviation communications but that guy is very good at what he does, even if he does inject a little humor into his job.
The NBC coverage of this was ridiculous, they managed to equate the JFK controller with an Aeroflot pilot who let his kids fly and subsequently crash an airliner. They played B-roll of the wreckage from that crash when discussing the JFK "incident." The mind reels from the lack of ethics.

Yes and they even messed the facts of that story up what they did not tell you about that Aeroflot flight was their was a major flaw with the autopilot that made it disconnect when the control column was pushed or moved NOONE even the mfg knew about that flaw and because of that incident a major flaw was fixed...this was a non issue i worry more about student drivers especially the student semi drivers than this..this is why I hate the media always take something small and blow it up  poor kids now they get to blame them selves for getting daddy fired think they will want to be controllers now?..thanks media and stupid uninformed public. posting this as if they were giving flight instructions or vital instructions we should swamp the FAA and help this controller out shame on you media.
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CrashJG
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« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2010, 08:16:16 PM »

It is great that everyone has some sympathy for both Father and child. But the Father knew the rules and he violated them. This wasn't on the midshift, this was done during a busy period of traffic. I am a controller and we all know that you do not let someone broadcast on the air. Have I seen it done? Yes I have. But it becomes a problem when you get caught. The supervisor should be suspended also since he/she let it happen.
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sunburn
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« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2010, 10:12:54 PM »

Was this the same controller who was in that legendary recording known as "Bad Day at JFK Ground"?

No. It wasn't.
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MikeELP
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« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2010, 10:18:39 PM »

I sure hope that "Crash" is some sort of nickname other than anything having to do with you occupation.  huh

For Pete's sake...the kid was NOT left alone in the tower cab while Daddy went for lunch!!!  

If ANYONE would have complained, don't you think it would have been the pilots themselves??  Or perhaps the 3 or 4 other controllers on duty in the tower at that time? But NO..they enjoyed the moment because they realized (unlike the sensationalist media and a few others getting their panties in a bunch) that this was NOT an unsafe event.

And FWIW...the kid was more articulate than some of the controllers I have had to deal with.   grin

Mike
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Lon
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« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2010, 10:30:06 PM »

No one has listened to the recording on LiveATC.net? If you have, could you share the time of day (or even the link). Thanks.
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Chananya Freedman
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« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2010, 11:27:14 PM »

It's really a shame that the controller would even be prosecuted. The kid had to come into work with his father. If he was bored he could have gotten another pair of head phones and had him listen along with his father. But all the pilots that heard this seem to be enjoying themselves from having gotten a nice treat out of it. Hey, I enjoyed it too! But if I were given the opportunity to do what that kid did, I would jump at it!!

http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviation-audio-clips/new-kjfk-controller/?action=dlattach;attach=3316

I think this is the link you are looking for. By the way, I personally think the kid did a really good job!

Question: Does anyone think he acted a little like Boston John?
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Fryy
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« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2010, 11:29:40 PM »

No one has listened to the recording on LiveATC.net? If you have, could you share the time of day (or even the link). Thanks.

Maybe it should be removed. It makes me wonder if this site could have negative consequences for controllers such as this example. Did someone report him, or did he get caught because someone posted a clip? It is a shame and very disappointing. If I was that kid, or one of the pilots, it would be a thing to remember for life.
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iflyhi
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« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2010, 11:59:01 PM »

fryy ,  too late to remove it now,  as it is all over the world..    agreed, the media SUCKS.   especially in new york.    did anyone catch letterman tonite ?   dave letterman is a  jerk !!
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b757lvr
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« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2010, 12:26:53 AM »

It's really a shame that the controller would even be prosecuted. The kid had to come into work with his father. If he was bored he could have gotten another pair of head phones and had him listen along with his father. But all the pilots that heard this seem to be enjoying themselves from having gotten a nice treat out of it. Hey, I enjoyed it too! But if I were given the opportunity to do what that kid did, I would jump at it!!

http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviation-audio-clips/new-kjfk-controller/?action=dlattach;attach=3316

I think this is the link you are looking for. By the way, I personally think the kid did a really good job!

Question: Does anyone think he acted a little like Boston John?


Yes I do..especially when he said "adios amigos"
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dasy2k1
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« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2010, 04:33:36 AM »

Again Like the others here i cant see what all the fuss is about.... Its clear from the clips i head on the radio this moning (on my local station in manchester UK!!! for goodness sake) that the controller was in control at all times... although i did hear him give a rather more critical clearance than a ground taxi instruction..! (he clears at least one AC for takeoff)

This sort of thing has allways happened and will probabbly continue to happen. I know ive done similiar in the past (worked a railway signal box under instruction)!

I feel that the controller in this case should get a very public slap on the wrist, but no more than that!
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RV1
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« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2010, 07:01:24 AM »

Most people who are even vaguely familiar with ATC know that this was NOT an unsafe operation. You know that this controller was not alone in the cab with his son because he gave no clearances and no taxi instructions. This meant that there was at least one other controller up there, at LEAST one. You also know that when a controller is training a controller-in-training, the trainee will and often does make mistakes. The trainer will, if necessary, key up and correct the mistake or allow the trainee sufficient time to fix the mistake. The trainer has his headset in the override jack just for that reason. The majority of what the kid was frequency changes. We've done that in the past for individuals on tours/job shadowing, just not very often and always with the hope that the training department wouldn't pick that day to pull the tapes for our tape talk. We are not licensed by the FCC to broadcast on the radio as individuals, maybe the FAA is as a whole, I don't know. There is, however, no restrictions, licenses or whatever for us to key up our mics.
   That being said,  it was against the rules. We deal daily with rules upon rules. The rules are ever changing and there are many of them! When I started, the .65 was about 3/4" thick. Now it's 1 1/2-2".
Sometimes it would be better to work at a smaller, out of the way facility that nobody really monitors and do this than at a place like JFK. Things like this can disappear easier from small facilities than they can at places that are more in the focus of the world/media.
   The other factors at play here are that until a few months ago, the controllers were under Imposed Work Rules and were (still are in some areas) dealing with people in management that were more than willing to make examples of some controllers to get the rest to toe the line. We've been telling all the new hires to not give management reasons to look into firing them. Odd isn't it, that that is part of the training protocol even though there is a shortage of controllers?
   I think that the media will end up forcing the FAA's hand in dealing with the controller and his supe. If it hadn't been international news, it probably would have been a stern talking to and a 'Don't let it happen again'. But since it hit all major networks...
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« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2010, 07:56:44 AM »

With all due respect to everyone and I do have respect for ATC's and you guys of course, I think everyone is kind of missing the point.  This isn't about the ATC world and whether they think its safe or not.  Its about someone who is directing traffic in one of the world's busiest regions of air travel and that person's judgement.  He then apparently thought it was so much fun he brought the other kid the next day.  I think the FAA and the ATC union have made it clear there is a certain level of professionalism and responsibility when you work at this job.  Sure no harm was done, but I think with the hundreds of runway incursions this country has experienced over the past few years we should all know by now that anything can happen.  I know its cute and funny when a child is in the tower and just saying a couple words.  But, all it takes is one lapse of concentration by someone and catastrophe can happen.  I'm not going to knock the safety of having the child in tower, but I will knock the controller's judgement and to me having proper judgment is critical in a job where one mistake can and has in the past cost people's lives.  This guy's actions are unacceptable if only because it sends the message that JFK controllers aren't serious about their jobs which are very important jobs. Sure we we all know a bit more in this forum about ATC and how its conducted etc.  But the rest of the world doesn't, and this controller doesn't work for us, he works for the rest of the world.  The FAA and the ATC union have made it clear that this kind of conduct is troubling and unacceptable and I have to agree.  It simply shouldn't happen.  When we let standards lapse, the whole industry suffers, and that isn't fair to the other controllers who work their tail off to get the job done right.  There are plenty of jobs where kids are welcome at work with their dad.  Just the thought of having a child in the tower around a bunch of people trying to concentrate is enough of a problem for me.  I've worked in a cubicle and had trouble concentrating when someone brought their kid to work.  I can't imagine being in a tower directing traffic around JFK and having a youngster hanging around.  Stressful environments where lives are at risk are not for kids.  I like kids and I thought the recordings were sort of funny as did the pilots, but it was poor judgment and it happened two days in a row.  Unacceptable to have this kind of judgement and demand respect for having a stressful job at the same time.  It appears the controller will probably lose his job and that's unfortunate.  But, when you think about him knowing the rules, and allowing his kid in the tower two days in a row, I can't see how anyone can be surprised.  This is not your average office job here.   
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ogogog
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« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2010, 08:23:21 AM »

the FAA and NATCA National should be the last to pull the professionalism and responsibility card out.
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dave
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« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2010, 08:41:11 AM »

the FAA and NATCA National should be the last to pull the professionalism and responsibility card out.

And I find it amazing that the people who seem to be so outraged about this are not much more outraged about the massive waste that surrounds FAA and other government projects.
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Seaduck123
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« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2010, 08:56:36 AM »

I agree Dave. The FAA has to bluster and investigate with the help of the "lamestream media" to distract from all the other safety failures and inaction on safety issues they are guilty of in aviation.  The bureaucrats at the FAA are just covering for their own incompetence.  Picking on a kid with such self righteousness is ridiculous and just points out their irrelevance.
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captray
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« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2010, 09:25:59 AM »

I think that the bigger lesson in all this is; anything you say is being recorded and will be used against you.
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spatrick
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« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2010, 10:28:48 AM »

With all due respect to everyone and I do have respect for ATC's and you guys of course, I think everyone is kind of missing the point.  This isn't about the ATC world and whether they think its safe or not.  Its about someone who is directing traffic in one of the world's busiest regions of air travel and that person's judgement.  He then apparently thought it was so much fun he brought the other kid the next day.  I think the FAA and the ATC union have made it clear there is a certain level of professionalism and responsibility when you work at this job.  Sure no harm was done, but I think with the hundreds of runway incursions this country has experienced over the past few years we should all know by now that anything can happen.  I know its cute and funny when a child is in the tower and just saying a couple words.  But, all it takes is one lapse of concentration by someone and catastrophe can happen.  I'm not going to knock the safety of having the child in tower, but I will knock the controller's judgement and to me having proper judgment is critical in a job where one mistake can and has in the past cost people's lives.  This guy's actions are unacceptable if only because it sends the message that JFK controllers aren't serious about their jobs which are very important jobs. Sure we we all know a bit more in this forum about ATC and how its conducted etc.  But the rest of the world doesn't, and this controller doesn't work for us, he works for the rest of the world.  The FAA and the ATC union have made it clear that this kind of conduct is troubling and unacceptable and I have to agree.  It simply shouldn't happen.  When we let standards lapse, the whole industry suffers, and that isn't fair to the other controllers who work their tail off to get the job done right.  There are plenty of jobs where kids are welcome at work with their dad.  Just the thought of having a child in the tower around a bunch of people trying to concentrate is enough of a problem for me.  I've worked in a cubicle and had trouble concentrating when someone brought their kid to work.  I can't imagine being in a tower directing traffic around JFK and having a youngster hanging around.  Stressful environments where lives are at risk are not for kids.  I like kids and I thought the recordings were sort of funny as did the pilots, but it was poor judgment and it happened two days in a row.  Unacceptable to have this kind of judgement and demand respect for having a stressful job at the same time.  It appears the controller will probably lose his job and that's unfortunate.  But, when you think about him knowing the rules, and allowing his kid in the tower two days in a row, I can't see how anyone can be surprised.  This is not your average office job here.   

I fully agree with 'YOU' JFER1980!!!!  rolleyes
The JFK tower is NOT a childcare facility- The supervisor lacked good judgement- The father was NOT doing HIS job HE is paid for- Known policies were REPEATLY violated (with 2 different kids!) ..i guess we should be glad this FATHERS last name was not DUGGER (father of 17 kids!!).

Poor judgement here and NOW there are consequences  embarassed. Lesson learned for everyone. undecided[/b]
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delta092b
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« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2010, 03:02:36 PM »

I think it's very sad that a non malicious decision has caused so much negative attention. The "15 minutes of fame" we're all supposed to have isn't supposed to be like this. Once all the media has gone away and had their fun, a professional controller, his family and young child are left trying to get their lives back to normal. I wish them all well and hope that the "experience" will have a positive influence on this kids future and not make him scared to take chances.

2010 isn't supposed to be like this!
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phlcontroller
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« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2010, 04:22:05 PM »

Having this child on frequency is similar to letting a "new" developmental take the frequency for the first time. I don't understand what the big deal is. As a controller your going to override anything that is said in error.  Those that view this job from the outside understandably have no idea.   
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cstefano
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« Reply #47 on: March 04, 2010, 04:50:35 PM »

This whole mess could have been avoided with one simple sentence:

"Sorry, son; I wish I could let you talk to the planes, but I can't because I have to follow the rules."
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b757lvr
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« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2010, 05:54:32 PM »

listening to jfk tower right now and some of the pilots are switching over to departure saying "adios"  I guess this is their way of showing support for the controller.
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aevins
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« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2010, 06:50:16 PM »

Heard that too, cute.
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