Author Topic: CYUL/CZUL feed enhancements  (Read 15459 times)

Offline dave

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CYUL/CZUL feed enhancements
« on: April 14, 2014, 01:24:58 PM »
We are making some changes/additions to our Montreal feed stack.  Right now things are in a little bit of a state of flux but the current feeds are here:

http://www.liveatc.net/search/?icao=cyul

(with the exception of Noranda which is not broadcast out of Montreal)

Recent changes:
- now broadcasting all CYUL Tower frequencies
- addition of some ground freqs
- addition of some CZUL (Montreal Center) frequencies which broadcast from (even if only occasionally) the Montreal area.  On this feed we may still have 125.150, which is a CZUL frequency that handles arrivals/departures into CYHU St. Hubert (that frequency is not listed on this feed right now but is still scanning on it for now as we work on things).

Some things we are trying to figure out:

1) Is it Montreal Terminal or Montreal Center that actually handles IFR traffic into and out of CYHU?
2) Should we move 125.150 to the CYUL Approach feed instead?
3) Does anyone have deeper knowledge of the CZUL transmitters/frequencies allegedly in and around CYUL?

What else would be worth scanning?  We might be able to add a receiver for further splitting but not before we understand the use of repeaters around CYUL.  It seems that there is heavy use of such in the area for both CYUL and CZUL. 

See these references for more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Area_Control_Centre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Area_Control_Centre#Peripheral_station_.28PAL.29_frequencies
http://www.canairradio.com/qc.html




Offline janlam01

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Re: CYUL/CZUL feed enhancements
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2014, 10:36:33 PM »
We are making some changes/additions to our Montreal feed stack.  Right now things are in a little bit of a state of flux but the current feeds are here:

http://www.liveatc.net/search/?icao=cyul

(with the exception of Noranda which is not broadcast out of Montreal)

Recent changes:
- now broadcasting all CYUL Tower frequencies
- addition of some ground freqs
- addition of some CZUL (Montreal Center) frequencies which broadcast from (even if only occasionally) the Montreal area.  On this feed we may still have 125.150, which is a CZUL frequency that handles arrivals/departures into CYHU St. Hubert (that frequency is not listed on this feed right now but is still scanning on it for now as we work on things).

Some things we are trying to figure out:

1) Is it Montreal Terminal or Montreal Center that actually handles IFR traffic into and out of CYHU?
2) Should we move 125.150 to the CYUL Approach feed instead?
3) Does anyone have deeper knowledge of the CZUL transmitters/frequencies allegedly in and around CYUL?

What else would be worth scanning?  We might be able to add a receiver for further splitting but not before we understand the use of repeaters around CYUL.  It seems that there is heavy use of such in the area for both CYUL and CZUL. 

See these references for more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Area_Control_Centre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Area_Control_Centre#Peripheral_station_.28PAL.29_frequencies
http://www.canairradio.com/qc.html


First off, thank you for the new feed addition. Frequency 128.775 is of interest to me.

I obtained a few outdated Nav Canada en-route charts posted on ivao.ca (dated February 9, 2012), and I'll try to answer question 3:
- 128.225 Rawdon Sector located in Trois-Rivieres, Quebec
- 128.775 Thurso Sector located in Ottawa, ON (which is combined with frequency 126.575 at Mont-Laurier, Quebec, as mentioned in this thread: http://www.liveatc.net/forums/listener-forum/question-regarding-montreal-centre-frequencies-134-975-and-128-775-%28ottawa-area%29/)
- 132.550 Gransby Sector located in Sherbrooke, Quebec
- 135.600 might be located in Montreal

Not sure if this helps.

Offline JetScan1

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Re: CYUL/CZUL feed enhancements
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2014, 10:45:42 AM »
Quote
What else would be worth scanning?

I would be interested in a feed covering 134.400. The transmitter is located in Montreal. This is a high altitude sector (FL290 and above) covering the airspace west of Montreal. The frequency is also cross-coupled with 127.875. This would cover that airspace from overhead Montreal towards Ottawa to the border with Toronto as well as north up to the border with the airspace covered by the Noranda radio. I would donate a radio for a dedicated feed to 134.400.

I notice on the CZUL Center (Montreal) feed you list 120.425 as a Montreal Center frequency. Just wondering what your source is for that, first time I've heard of that frequency ?


Offline dave

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Re: CYUL/CZUL feed enhancements
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2014, 11:01:50 AM »
Quote
What else would be worth scanning?

I would be interested in a feed covering 134.400. The transmitter is located in Montreal. This is a high altitude sector (FL290 and above) covering the airspace west of Montreal. The frequency is also cross-coupled with 127.875. This would cover that airspace from overhead Montreal towards Ottawa to the border with Toronto as well as north up to the border with the airspace covered by the Noranda radio. I would donate a radio for a dedicated feed to 134.400.

I notice on the CZUL Center (Montreal) feed you list 120.425 as a Montreal Center frequency. Just wondering what your source is for that, first time I've heard of that frequency ?



Well, thanks for the offer but it's premature to dedicate a radio right now to just one Center frequency.  First we'll have to see if we even hear the ground side on 134.400.  We may be able to do it, but I can't make a promise.  What may make more sense is eliminate all the frequencies where we can't hear the ground side. 

As for 120.425, it was found during a routine band scan and shows up with a ? on this page:

http://www.canairradio.com/qc.html

as both a Terminal departure frequency and a CYUL frequency.  I will find out from the FIR which one it is.


Offline JetScan1

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Re: CYUL/CZUL feed enhancements
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2014, 12:52:11 PM »
Quote
As for 120.425, it was found during a routine band scan and shows up with a ? on this page:

Okay after further checking I see it is a new Montreal Terminal (Departure) frequency. The same info. I have also lists 118.075 as a new Departure frequency as well. These 2 new frequencies were added as part of a Montreal Terminal Airspace redesign back in March of 2013.

Also on the Center feed you have 132.55 listed. I haven't listened to that area in depth recently but from what I recall it seems (?) they have stopped using 132.55 and replaced it with just 132.350 (merged the sectors permanetly ?). From what I've heard so far it doesn't appear you are hearing the controller in that sector ?

As far as I can tell so far the only Center controller you are able to hear on the Center feed is on 135.600. This frequency appears to be cross-coupled at all times with 128.775 (Ottawa - south area), 126.575 (Mount Laurier - north area), and 133.900 (YFJ area).

From what I've heard so far this is what I think you should cover on the Montreal Center (low) feed.

135.600
128.225
132.350

120.425 should be removed and added to the Terminal radio

And if you get a dedicated Montreal Center (High) feed.

134.400 (covers 127.875)
133.225
123.925

133.225 and 123.925 are almost always cross-coupled into one sector, but you wont get the controllers in Monteral. During the overnight hours all sectors are combined and would be heard on 134.400 (cross-coupled).


Offline JetScan1

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Re: CYUL/CZUL feed enhancements
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2014, 09:50:24 AM »
Quote
We might be able to add a receiver for further splitting but not before we understand the use of repeaters around CYUL.

Any news on this new YUL setup ?

After some more listening I think I have a better understanding of the frequencies used by the Terminal.

I see you still have the Departure frequency of 120.425 on the Center radio. This frequency seems to be linked/cross-coupled with the other Terminal frequencies of 125.150 and 134.150 most of the time, which results in you hearing the same thing on both the Center and Arrival/Departure feeds when these frequencies are in use.

It would make sense to move 120.425 to the Arrivals/Departure feed to avoid this overlap. Ideally if you were going to split the feed into two you would have 120.425/125.150/134.150/124.650 on one and the arrival frequencies 132.850/118.900/126.900 on the other. That seems to be how they generally split the airspace and would probably give you an equal mix of traffic with minimal overlap.

As far as the Center goes I did hear them using 132.55 but only once, this is the same sector where 132.350 seems to be the normal frequency used low altitude to the east.

If it's feasible any chance you could try a test on the Center feed with all the adjacent low altitude Montreal sectors to see how it sounds ? Remove 120.425 and 125.150 (if it's on there) and scan the following (with delay - OFF, if its an option) ..

135.600
126.575
128.775
134.975
132.550
132.350
128.225

I suspect you will only hear the controller on 135.600, and it seems intermittent, but the reception of aircraft appears to be pretty good.

Thanks for any info.








Offline dave

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Re: CYUL/CZUL feed enhancements
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2014, 10:05:45 AM »
Thanks for the info - quite helpful.  We are still evaluating what to do but right now it's more an issue of getting jointly coinciding free time to change things.

Offline janlam01

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Re: CYUL/CZUL feed enhancements
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2014, 07:00:15 PM »
Quote
We might be able to add a receiver for further splitting but not before we understand the use of repeaters around CYUL.

Any news on this new YUL setup ?

After some more listening I think I have a better understanding of the frequencies used by the Terminal.

I see you still have the Departure frequency of 120.425 on the Center radio. This frequency seems to be linked/cross-coupled with the other Terminal frequencies of 125.150 and 134.150 most of the time, which results in you hearing the same thing on both the Center and Arrival/Departure feeds when these frequencies are in use.

It would make sense to move 120.425 to the Arrivals/Departure feed to avoid this overlap. Ideally if you were going to split the feed into two you would have 120.425/125.150/134.150/124.650 on one and the arrival frequencies 132.850/118.900/126.900 on the other. That seems to be how they generally split the airspace and would probably give you an equal mix of traffic with minimal overlap.

As far as the Center goes I did hear them using 132.55 but only once, this is the same sector where 132.350 seems to be the normal frequency used low altitude to the east.

If it's feasible any chance you could try a test on the Center feed with all the adjacent low altitude Montreal sectors to see how it sounds ? Remove 120.425 and 125.150 (if it's on there) and scan the following (with delay - OFF, if its an option) ..

135.600
126.575
128.775
134.975
132.550
132.350
128.225

I suspect you will only hear the controller on 135.600, and it seems intermittent, but the reception of aircraft appears to be pretty good.

Thanks for any info.

I've only listened to frequencies 128.775 and 134.975 only at night or overnight hours on the CYOW feed. But I suspect that those two frequencies are quite busy when coordinating traffic during the daytime hours before/after Montreal Terminal frequencies for Arrivals/Departures.

I'm wondering if it would make more sense (provided someone is able to host the feed) if one CZUL feed for frequencies 128.225, 132.350, 132.550, 135.600 covering areas east of Montreal. And a second separate CZUL feed for frequencies 126.575, 128.775, 134.975 covering areas west of Montreal.

Just my opinion.

Offline JetScan1

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Re: CYUL/CZUL feed enhancements
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2014, 10:01:37 PM »
Quote
I'm wondering if it would make more sense (provided someone is able to host the feed) if one CZUL feed for frequencies 128.225, 132.350, 132.550, 135.600 covering areas east of Montreal.

135.600 is linked with the west frequencies 128.775/126.575/133.900 and when it's slow/weekends 134.975 is added. This is the frequency you are hearing the controller on at the YUL Center feed, as well as the aircraft on the other frequencies via cross-coupling. So it doesn't make sense to split it from the west frequencies.

The east sector is not that busy. I suspect one controller normally works all 3 frequencies. And maybe 135.025 as well ? (can anyone confirm this ?). Having a dedicated radio is best but when radio supply is limited it would be a waste of resources given the volume of traffic to the east as well as no controller reception from Montreal on those frequencies. (unless they have moved the 132.350 transmitter to Montreal recently ?).

While it might be busy at certain times I think one radio in Montreal scanning all the adjacent low sectors would work okay ? If another radio should come available (I'd donate it), I would use it to cover the high sectors and scan 134.400/123.925/133.225 before I'd split the low sectors east/west.

The transmitter site for 134.975 and 128.775 are in Ottawa so ideally you would run a feed covering these sectors from there.


Offline janlam01

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Re: CYUL/CZUL feed enhancements
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2014, 07:15:25 PM »
Quote
I'm wondering if it would make more sense (provided someone is able to host the feed) if one CZUL feed for frequencies 128.225, 132.350, 132.550, 135.600 covering areas east of Montreal.

135.600 is linked with the west frequencies 128.775/126.575/133.900 and when it's slow/weekends 134.975 is added. This is the frequency you are hearing the controller on at the YUL Center feed, as well as the aircraft on the other frequencies via cross-coupling. So it doesn't make sense to split it from the west frequencies.

The east sector is not that busy. I suspect one controller normally works all 3 frequencies. And maybe 135.025 as well ? (can anyone confirm this ?). Having a dedicated radio is best but when radio supply is limited it would be a waste of resources given the volume of traffic to the east as well as no controller reception from Montreal on those frequencies. (unless they have moved the 132.350 transmitter to Montreal recently ?).

While it might be busy at certain times I think one radio in Montreal scanning all the adjacent low sectors would work okay ? If another radio should come available (I'd donate it), I would use it to cover the high sectors and scan 134.400/123.925/133.225 before I'd split the low sectors east/west.

The transmitter site for 134.975 and 128.775 are in Ottawa so ideally you would run a feed covering these sectors from there.

I'm willing retract my earlier suggestion as I wasn't aware that areas east of Montreal (128.225 132.350 and 132.55) aren't busy during the daytime hours. I haven't spent a whole lot of time listening to the new CZUL feed, but I will agree with you on removing those Montreal Terminal frequencies.

Anyways, whatever works best, go for it.

Offline JetScan1

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Re: CYUL/CZUL feed enhancements
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2014, 10:26:56 PM »
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Ideally if you were going to split the feed into two you would have 120.425/125.150/134.150/124.650 on one and the arrival frequencies 132.850/118.900/126.900 on the other.

I might have spoke a bit to soon on the Terminal frequencies. It sounds like during normal business hours during the weekday that they keep 124.650 separate from 120.425/125.150/134.150 most of the time, so it would probably be better to put 124.650 with the arrival frequencies 132.850/118.900/126.900 to avoid overlap (if you were going to split the Terminal feed into two).




Offline dave

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Re: CYUL/CZUL feed enhancements
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2014, 01:14:26 PM »
Thanks for all the input...whatever questions still exist I'll take up with a controller in the area who can provide more insight