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Author Topic: CYYZ approach  (Read 8806 times)
Scrapper
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« on: January 24, 2007, 07:15:10 PM »

Noticed something today, above and beyond the freqs listed on this feed, tonight they they were also using a final approach freq (don't remember the freq.) can you add this freq onto the feed, cause otherwise we're losing aircraft between the terminal controller and the tower... they go to final approach and THEN tower... (it's either 134.175 or 135.175 but I can't remember...)
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kkjlai
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« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2007, 08:04:16 PM »

Final approach Frequency for CYYZ is 134.175MHz, also called ILS Monitor frequency by some others..

kkjlai
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Scrapper
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« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2007, 09:45:52 PM »

yep that's the one... i'm listening again and I hear the controllers passing aircraft to that frequency... but I don't think that freq is actually being scanned... anyway we can change that? (it's the freq between the approach controller and the final approach or ils monitor controller... I imagine that's the guy that monitors ifr traffic and maintains seperation between the aircraft on the parallel runways so as to make sure they're not impeding into each other's path as they're establishing on their glideslope?)
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sierra yankee
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« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2007, 01:12:21 AM »

ILS monitor position only opens when we're on certain runway configurations that require it.  It's a pretty boring frequency usually, all you'll hear will be frequency changes to tower because all the sequencing and vectoring will already have been done by the arrival controllers.  The monitor is only there, as you suggest, to make sure nobody strays off the localizer.

Is the feed scanning 124.47 in addition to 132.8?  24.47 is the second arrival position that opens up sporadically during the day to split the arrival workload during peak traffic periods.  It functions as the "outer" position that takes the aircraft checking in from the non-straight in bedpost fixes and descends and sequences them into the downwind leg, at which time they get switched over to inner arrival on 132.8.  Inner arrival will turn them to base and then onto final.  It would only be after that that they'd be switched to the ILS monitor.

They had the second arrival position opened up almost all afternoon and evening due to relatively heavy traffic (except of course when we lost one runway for snow clearing and started holding at the bedpost fixes -- then the rest of us started working twice as hard and the terminal guys, with no more planes to work since hardly anybody could get in, went for supper), so if the feed's not scanning 24.47, you'd miss a lot!

Don't know if this helps, I haven't listened to the terminal/tower feed in a long time.
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kkjlai
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« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2007, 01:32:47 PM »


Is the feed scanning 124.47 in addition to 132.8?  24.47 is the second arrival position that opens up sporadically during the day to split the arrival workload during peak traffic periods.  It functions as the "outer" position that takes the aircraft checking in from the non-straight in bedpost fixes and descends and sequences them into the downwind leg, at which time they get switched over to inner arrival on 132.8.  Inner arrival will turn them to base and then onto final.  It would only be after that that they'd be switched to the ILS monitor.

Just a observation from my experience, I noticed when YYZ is busy and using a 06L/R/05 or 23/24L/R configuration, 124.47 mostly handles aircraft from the north side and vector them to the north (05/23) runway, while the 132.8 vectors them to the south (06/24s) runway..

In contrast, in 15/33 config, they usually have 124.47 handles  'outer / high 6000+)' then pass them off to 'inner /lower (<6000') arrival controller for final vectorings, just like what sierra yankee described.

And agreed that the ILS monitor freq is pretty boring.  Sometimes the arrival controller 'skips' it and asked the plane to contact the tower at the marker even though the ILS monitor frequency is actually staffed.

kkjlai
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Scrapper
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« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2007, 10:11:15 PM »

Roger, understand why we don't need the ILS Monitor freq scanned...
SY, here's another one for you (I'm just full of them... stop answering them so well if you want me to stop asking! evil

Are the terminal guys always trying to get planes sequenced onto a downwind for a runway regardless of where they are coming from? Do the guys coming in from the general direction of the runway approach do that extra turn usually, or do you just leave space for them between two aircraft as part of the sequencing and get them in on a direct approach? (simple math really, slow a guy down 30 knots and he opens 1/2 mile every minute on the guy in front of him...). (this discussion forum would be even more helpful with the ability to draw diagrams! haha!)
So if the 24s are active for example, a guy coming in from montreal, can he get sequenced between two aircraft and do a direct approach, or do you get him to go join the rest of the guys on the downwind even though he ends up having to cover more distance and do an extra unnecessary turn? I imagine that since the mandate for air control is to safely but expeditiously move as many aircraft as possible, that you woudn't want to extend his route to the airport if you didn't have to? Damn I'm just full of SO many questions tonight...
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SkyViking
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« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2007, 11:05:41 PM »

The east/west arrivals usually get a straight in, with the north/south joining the downwind when 5-06/23-24s are in use.  The greater the traffic volume, the longer the downwind is what I usually see from my backyard.
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sierra yankee
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« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2007, 02:47:35 PM »

YYZ uses four "bedpost" fixes for arrivals:  FLINE (north), ROKTO (west), LINNG (south), and WASIE (east).  All arrivals get routed over one of these fixes depending on direction of flight.  Depending on which runway configuration we're using, then, one of these fixes is called the "straight-in fix":

landing 15L/R:  FLINE
landing 05/06s:  ROKTO
landing 33L/R:  LINNG
landing 23/24s:  WASIE

In order to make things work a little more efficiently, the crossing restrictions and speeds for inbound aircraft change if the fix over which they're routed is the straight-in fix.  For instance, in the FLINE bedpost sector (called "Wiarton"), the restriction at FLINE (provided we're landing anything EXCEPT 15L/R) is normally 9,000 feet and 250 knots for jets (8,000 for turboprops, and we can have a jet and prop go into the terminal right on top of each other since the prop will be much slower in the downwind and they'll sequence themselves that way).  However, when we are landing 15L/R (this is rare), all aircraft have to cross FLINE at 7,000 feet and 210 knots (and we have to sequence the jets and the props together so there's 10 miles between each aircraft in the stream).  That's because they'll be doing a straight-in approach as opposed to being vectored around for a downwind to one of the other runways.

I've never heard of an aircraft arriving over the straight-in fix and not doing a straight-in approach (absent an unexpected mayday from somebody else which would require the arrival guys to start pulling aircraft off the approach).  It would cause more problems if they were vectored away, since that would take them into one of the downwinds.  Most likely if things got so backed up that they couldn't go straight in, we'd already be holding.  What does happen in the case of more minor "problems" is that there's another controller working in the TCU, called the coordinator, who doesn't actually work any traffic directly but handles runway assignments, coordinates overflights and pointouts, etc..  The coord watches the straight-in stream closely and if there's too many aircraft coming, will get on the horn to the controller working that sector and say "spin that guy," "slow that one down," etc. etc. to assist in creating holes.

It's true that the downwinds get longer with more traffic, but there's obviously a limit to how far they can extend without creating problems (starting to infringe on the bedpost sectors, too many aircraft for the arrival controllers to be watching, etc.), and that's where flow control comes in.  Once the rate of arrivals projected to be entering the terminal during a certain period exceeds the rate that we can safely handle (which depends on what runway configuration is in use, what the weather's like, staffing in the tower, and a few other factors), the computers in our TMU start spitting out flow times, and the bedpost sector controllers begin holding arrivals for specified periods of time.  We've been doing this a lot over the past week or so due to snow clearing, etc..

If you want to see the usual arrival routes for Toronto landers, you should be able to find the STARs online at www.czyzfir.com (courtesy of the simulated air traffic control network guys).  Click on Charts, then Lester B. Pearson International.  The four arrivals used during normal operations are the MANS3 (the czyzfir guys are using old charts so they have the MANS2 up, which is essentially the same), the SIMCO2, the YOUTH2, and the WTRLO2, and you'll notice that they have different flight paths to follow depending on the runways in use.  Basically the aircraft set themselves up for the straight-in approach or downwind, and in the latter case, the arrival controller issues vectors to base and final from there.

Hope this helps.
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kkjlai
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« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2007, 03:57:53 PM »

sierra yankee;

You look to be an expert in the CYYZ/CZYZ control zone..  and from the signature of your message you are an ACC trainee, nice to have you here!

You mind if I ask you a question.. about CYYZ runway configuration?  Do you know, specifically for runway 24L/R or 6R/L, what criteria do they decide to use 24L or 24R (vice versa 6R or 6L), apart from obvious reasons such as snow clearing which closes one runway and low vis operations on 6L ?     

Since they are very close together and probably won't allow for simutaneous operations unless they are staggaed.   

Sometimes I notice them use 24R (6L) exclusively and at other times they use 24L (6R) exclusively for both landing and departing depending on wind direction.  Just don't know how they rationale behind the choosing of Left side or Right side..

Glad if you or anyone can shed any light on this..

Thanks!
kkjlai
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sierra yankee
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« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2007, 04:56:40 PM »

We can use 24L/R simultaneously if one (the inner, so 24R in this case) is used exclusively for takeoffs and the outer is used exclusively for arrivals.  (We can't run simultaneous arrivals on 24L and R, as the runways are too close for that.)  That would actually be the preferred configuration:  24R departures only, 24L arrivals only, 23 mixed-mode (both).  Same thing in east operations, use 5 in mixed mode, 6L departures, 6R arrivals.  Someday, years from now, we'll add a fourth parallel south of the current 05/23 and have two sets of parallel runways to use, similar to LAX, DFW etc..

For now, in order to "triple" (use all three runways as I described), we need extra staffing in both tower and TCU, so the reality is that this is usually only doable during certain hours during the afternoon and evening, and sometimes not even then depending on how many bodies are available.

More often, we prefer to use the parallels in a "dualling" configuration, in which both 05 and 06L (or 24R and 23) are employed in mixed-mode.  This is more efficient than having one runway be a dedicated departure runway and another be dedicated for arrivals, since it's rare that the number of arrivals and departures in a given period of time balance out exactly.  Also, it's a long taxi from one end of the field to the other, so having both runways available for departures and arrivals helps to minimize aircraft having to do that.

As to which of the south parallels gets used in that type of operation, it will generally be the inner (6L/24R).  It's longer, as well as being a shorter taxi from the terminals.  However, it depends on the runway surface condition, whether all approach aids and lights etc. are serviceable, whether maintenance is being done, and so on.  As far as I know, there's no operational advantage to using the outer in this type of operation if everything else is equal, but I don't work terminal/tower so it's possible that there's another factor that I'm not aware of.  I'm honestly not all that up on that particular end of things, literally, as the arrivals I work almost always go to 05/23 if it is open.

When we go onto 15L/R or 33L/R, that's when the operation slows down since we can't run simultaneous approaches to both runways (again due to proximity).  This means, again, that one runway is departure-only and one is arrival-only, which is less efficient.  If this is happening during peak hours there will almost for sure be holding involved.

Then you have a fourth, non-parallel type of configuration (eg. depart 33L, land 6L) which is sometimes used late at night, for noise abatement, or due to maintenance or snow clearing operations.  This is another situation we try to avoid during peak hours.

Hope this helps, if not I think there's somebody from the tower on the forums as well and he would be the expert on runway selection.  The enroute guys, and even the TCU, don't select the runway configuration per se, we just work with what the tower wants to do.
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SkyViking
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« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2007, 09:56:53 PM »

Seirra Yankee: Thanks for the great wealth of information you have provided above.   One rare configuration used which always amazes me is arrivals on 15 with departures on 23 and 06L.  Usually when the winds are less than 10 from the south and traffic flow is light.  And to top that, I know one eye witness who saw a simultaneous departure last May or June from 06L and 24L!

Back in the early 80s, if the winds were right the arrivals would be on 14 (now 15L) with departures being assigned either 05L/R (now 5&6L) or 23L/R (now 24R&23) depending on the flight routing.  Since taxiing gongestion was not an issue, aircraft were manouvering all over the field for take off.  (Made up for some of the boring Saturday afternoons, spotting from the roof of old T1).
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binky
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« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2007, 10:32:39 AM »

When traffic is low you can see some strange runway configurations at CYYZ.  For example when 05/23 is closed with favorable winds I've seen landing 15L with departures off 06L and 24R.  The departures are taxied to the departure end which best suits them for their flight planned route.  If you are able to catch a runway change you might also see the last lander for one runway (eg 06L) a mile or two final while the first departure becomes airborne off a new departure runway (eg 23) which makes for a neat photo.

Contrary to "SY"'s post simultaneous arrivals are permitted on 15L/R 33L/R or the close parallels 24L/R and 06L/R but the way the arrivals are placed on final is different than the typical 'dual' configurations that are used.  Because of the different rules (much more restrictive) when running simultaneous arrivals with one of the configurations mentioned above vs. the normal dual set up they aren't normally used unless it becomes necessary to do so.
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Tomato
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« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2007, 10:59:00 AM »

Just a small note here... I heard the same thing on the CYYZ feed around the same time (date) as posted.  I did notice one specific callsign NAVCAN3 all afternoon... must have been doing tests/inspections!  Smiley
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« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2007, 05:09:20 PM »

Apologies for reviving an old topic, but does anyone know what the two letter identifiers of the TCU sectors are?

S.
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sierra yankee
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« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2007, 06:19:13 PM »

AA for inner and outer arrival (they don't flash handoffs to each other, they just sit at adjacent consoles that are both configured for the AA CJS, and transfer comms from the outer to inner frequency at a predetermined point)
ND and SD for north and south departure
HO for terminal coordinator (not a valid CJS for radar handoffs as coord doesn't have a frequency or work traffic directly -- but all pointouts, coordination requests etc. are handled through the "HO" hotline on our VSCS)

That's it.
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