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Author Topic: egll- great feed  (Read 25360 times)
vz1
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« on: January 19, 2006, 06:04:04 AM »

congrates on the egll feed sound quility is googdd.  do all flight's going in to egll uses this freq.  also maybe you could tell me when the planess lv egll how  long does it take to the nat's
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Mike
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« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2006, 08:10:25 AM »

They better take it down quick. It's totally illegal to transmit ATC from the UK
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JetScan1
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« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2006, 09:35:17 AM »

Edited so I don't get arrested next time I'm in the UK rolleyes
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PHL Approach
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« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2006, 09:35:30 AM »

Quote from: Mike
They better take it down quick. It's totally illegal to transmit ATC from the UK


The server that is decoding and distributing the audio *is not in the UK* though.
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patriot
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« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2006, 09:47:26 AM »

Quote from: PHL_Approach
Quote from: Mike
They better take it down quick. It's totally illegal to transmit ATC from the UK


The server that is decoding and distributing the audio *is not in the UK* though.


Does that mean it is okay and is legal then?
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PHL Approach
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« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2006, 09:58:39 AM »

Sure, because it's "truly" broadcasting out of the US.
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dave
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« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2006, 10:08:25 AM »

Unfortunately this feed will need to come down soon.  We were notified by the Office of Communications (Ofcom), which is the regulator for the United Kingdom telecommunications and wireless communications services, that this is indeed an illegal activity in the U.K.

While LiveATC bears no legal responsibility for complying with the laws of other countries, we in no way wish to condone the breaking of laws by anyone in our wonderful community.   I will be informing the feeders of the U.K. feeds today of the request from Ofcom.

For those interested, this is the official stance and a direct quote from the U.K. representative:

  -----------------------------------------------------

"I realise that this is seen as a harmless hobby by enthusiasts but the fact remains that sending aeronautical messages, for example, over the internet is an offence under section 5(b)(ii) of the UK Wireless Telegraphy Act 1949 which states that:                                                        
                                                                           
"any person who - except in the course of legal proceedings or for the purpose of any report thereof, discloses any information as to the contents sender or addressee of any such message, being information which would not have come to his knowledge but for the use of wireless telegraphy apparatus by him or by another person".                                              
                                                                           
So in other words, if a person sends radio messages over the internet which he is not authorised to receive, he committs an offence by disclosing those messages.                                                                  
                                                                           
I hope this clarifies the position."

 -----------------------------------------------

So there you have it.  I suspect strongly that in 1949 the forefathers in the U.K. were thinking of war-time and perhaps police or other sensitive communications when they wrote this law.  The fact that the law exists and has been extended, by interpretation, to air traffic control communications is, well, downright silly.  But the law is the law.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

-Dave
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Mike
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« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2006, 10:57:43 AM »

Thought it would happen. It's even illegal to just listen to ATC for yourself as a hobby in the UK
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dave
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« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2006, 11:09:31 AM »

And to those of you here who I suspect reported this immediately to the government, shame on you.

This is a hobby that many around the world enjoy, and there is no harm in any of it.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people out there love to ruin a good thing.

The spirit of this law was clearly not aimed at this type of communication.

Sadly, there will always be pedants among us with nothing better to do.

Dave
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KPryor
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« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2006, 12:01:55 PM »

What a shame!  I was enjoying listening to this feed last night.  Let's hope that the law might one day be changed to recognize modern day life.  50+ year old laws governing technology are practically useless in this day and age.
KP
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Kalpazan
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« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2006, 01:02:26 PM »

One thing I don't like about Europe... it is always soooo conservative... far from the flexibility USA have... let's follow the law for the sake of following it... and so on  Sad
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LBBG - Burgas, Bulgaria Feeder
Mike
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« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2006, 01:05:02 PM »

Quote from: dave
And to those of you here who I suspect reported this immediately to the government, shame on you.

This is a hobby that many around the world enjoy, and there is no harm in any of it.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people out there love to ruin a good thing.

The spirit of this law was clearly not aimed at this type of communication.

Sadly, there will always be pedants among us with nothing better to do.

Dave


I can assure you it wasn't me. I live in Scotland and have always wanted to listen to ATC in the UK.

Don't think they will change it any time soon either
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dave
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« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2006, 01:25:50 PM »

Quote from: Mike

Don't think they will change it any time soon either


Is this from intimate knowledge of the subject?  

We must be on the Internet, where everyone is a critic and everyone is an expert.

smiley
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airbus342
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« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2006, 03:55:02 PM »

It is not illegal to just listen to ATC in the UK as long as the information is not passed onto anyone else so rebroadcasting is in that category and is therefore illegal (sadly) as th enew feed is very good quality. Hopefully this law will be repealed although I can't see it happening.  Sad
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reevery
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« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2006, 06:29:22 PM »

Quote from: airbus342
It is not illegal to just listen to ATC in the UK

Sadly, you are mistaken. In the UK it is illegal to even listen to something which isn't intended for you. If you have permission to listen, or if you are, say, at an air show where the frequency is published, then that is legal. If you don't do anything with the information you learn from listening, then you are unlikely to be prosecuted.

Quote from: PHL_Approach
The server that is decoding and distributing the audio *is not in the UK* though.

But assuming the radio receiver is in the UK, that is retransmitting onwards to the server. So that is where the illegality is.

I hope that's clarified these points... and I'm not at all in support of this legislation.
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ramnj
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« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2006, 07:25:23 PM »

I couldn't believe we where getting EGLL !!

Sadly no more...thanks to all concerned who made this little bit of heaven available...at least for a while.

Thanks especially to Dave for being sensitive and responsive to foreign govts regulations...even though they are a little too conservative.

regards,
Rick
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Javiation
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« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2006, 07:36:51 PM »

Quote from: airbus342
It is not illegal to just listen to ATC in the UK as long as the information is not passed onto anyone else so rebroadcasting is in that category and is therefore illegal (sadly) as th enew feed is very good quality. Hopefully this law will be repealed although I can't see it happening.  Sad


As mentioned by reevery I'm afraid you are wrong to suggest "Its OK as long as you don't pass it along".  It is an often quoted stance that was (is) also often used when referring to the emergency services but the bottom line, whilst owning any receiver regardless of coverage is not an offence in the UK listening to such transmissions is sad

Go to any airfield or airshow and you would be hard pressed to think that is the case - airband listening is generally tollerated by all parties but at times discression is needed (and advised).

The Radio Communications Agency (or Ofcom as they are now part ) information sheet RA169 states:

    This means that it is illegal to listen to anything other than general
    reception transmissions unless you are either a licensed user of the
    frequencies in question or have been specifically authorised to do so by a designated person. A designated person means:

    the Secretary of State;
    the Commissioners of Customs and Excise; or
    any other person designated for the purpose by regulations made by the Secretary of State. [/list:u][/i]

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/archive/ra/publication/ra_info/ra169.htm

The EGLL link was mentioned on quite a few aviation/spotting related groups earlier today which probably hastend its awarness to those less appreciative sad
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JC
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http://www.javiation.co.uk/sbs-1.html
philly
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« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2006, 10:35:18 AM »

I have just read that and it says you can listen to navigation broadcasts.

Which i think would come under airband.

I mean they sell airband radios in the airport shop at the airport.

plus plane spotters always use them freely in the airport and outside. i didnt read anywhere on that link where it says you cant just listen to them.

it says you can listen to navigation broadcasts amd i thought planes use atc for navigating. cheesy
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The Hoffspatcher
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« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2006, 07:52:02 AM »

That LHR feed was fantastic ....  real bummer they killed it  cry

The "my tax pays for the air traffic system therefore I own it and can listen to it" works well in most places, and maybe one day it'll be the same in the UK

But until then we'll all have to sit at LHR with our scanners and watch as the planes circle the Bovingdon hold  Smiley
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Ben Hoffman; BAv, ADX
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marcoleon
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« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2006, 01:23:44 PM »

Quote from: reevery

Sadly, you are mistaken. In the UK it is illegal to even listen to something which isn't intended for you.

In the US, they encourage pilots to listen to the frequency to gain better situational awareness. I quote the FAA's AIM:
4-2-2. Radio Technique
a. Listen before you transmit. Many times you can get the information you want through ATIS or by monitoring the frequency.

Who's to say what the intended audience is?
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55brianb
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« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2006, 10:34:46 AM »

Quote from: philly
I have just read that and it says you can listen to navigation broadcasts.

Which i think would come under airband.

I mean they sell airband radios in the airport shop at the airport.

plus plane spotters always use them freely in the airport and outside. i didnt read anywhere on that link where it says you cant just listen to them.

it says you can listen to navigation broadcasts amd i thought planes use atc for navigating. cheesy


I've been pressing Ofcom for some time now for a definition of "navigation broadcasts" ever since I was forced to take my Heathrow and Gatwick feeds off, and finally I received the following yesterday:

"There is no precise legal definition in law of what is meant by 'navigation broadcasts'. The authors of this information note were aiming to explain that in the case of maritime and aeronautical radio it is generally intended that some messages sent by some aero ground stations (eg By the NATS or individual airports) and some coastal radio stations (eg port controls or HM Coastguard) these messages are widely received. For instance messages about navigation hazards, search and rescue alerts, weather warnings and other similar general messages which are purposefully intended for widespread information are sent on specific channels (and are usually deemed by international treaty- eg by ITU or IMO- as intended for all maritime or aeronautical users."

That aside, does the Wireless Telegraphy Act actually cover this?  The definition of 'Telegraphy' as I've seen it relates to non-voice communications, eg mostly morse code.  In no definition have I seen mention or reference made to voice comms....

I'm waiting for my solicitor to return from holiday as I quite like the idea of legally challenging this nonsense.

Has anyone any idea of the penalties/fines involved if I were to start streaming again??

I had some dialogue with a high-ranking NATS official (and I do mean high-ranking) who contacted me saying he was all in favour of my streaming, and who couldn't see why it was a problem.  Unfortunately this isn't actually a subject for NATS; it's Ofcom's baby, so he couldn't assist.
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Breton
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« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2006, 04:55:36 PM »

Actually that decision was a very liberal decision not conservative.  Because I on the other hand am very conservative.
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