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| | |-+  FAA changes regarding "Position and Hold"?
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Author Topic: FAA changes regarding "Position and Hold"?  (Read 12112 times)
Cessna172
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« on: April 09, 2006, 05:15:38 PM »

A friend at my airport told me today that the FAA regs are going to be changed. Supposedly, the phrase "position and hold" will be abolished. Does anyone know anything about this?

Thanks!!

P.S. After hearing this, I went flying and I heard a lot of "Taking runway 33". Is that part of the new plan?

Cessna172
Home Airport: West Houston Airport (KIWS)
www.westhoustonairport.com
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n57flyguy
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« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2006, 05:23:05 PM »

yes, It has been "abolished" since March 20th I believe. As for what takes its place, I can ask around....


Paul
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ZOTAN
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« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2006, 05:47:36 PM »

It has been "banned" but facilities can put in a request for a waiver. About 99.9% of all airports in the US put in for the waiver and were approved. The only difference now is using "position and hold" instead of "taxi into position in hold". It was just a move by the FAA to make the public happy. Too bad they dont tell them about how 99% of all facilities got a waiver.
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Matt Stevens
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« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2006, 06:18:25 PM »

Quote from: ZOTAN
...The only difference now is using "position and hold" instead of "taxi into position in hold"...


Actually "position and hold" has been the preferred phraseology for the TIPH procedure for over 3 years now.  However many of the journeymen were still using "taxi into position and hold" until recently.

3-9-4. TAXI INTO POSITION AND HOLD (TIPH)

PHRASEOLOGY-
RUNWAY (number), POSITION AND HOLD.

Or, when only one runway is active:

POSITION AND HOLD.
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Regards
JD
digger
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« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2006, 09:39:54 PM »

Quote
About 99.9% of all airports in the US put in for the waiver and were approved.


Sorry to be skeptical--What's your source for that information?     smiley
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ZOTAN
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« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2006, 09:46:33 PM »

Quote from: digger
Quote
About 99.9% of all airports in the US put in for the waiver and were approved.


Sorry to be skeptical--What's your source for that information?     smiley


A controller working at KSAN. Also from personal experience just flying around to different airprots throughout Southern California. Sorry I cant provide links or anything though; I guess your going to have to take my word for it.
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Matt Stevens
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« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2006, 01:01:28 PM »

I can concur with Matt's information.  I also recently asked a tower controller at my class C airport, which had previously announced that they were doing away with P&H by the end of March, about whether they were keeping it and I was told "yes, P&H is not going away anytime soon."
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
Cessna172
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« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2006, 05:24:45 PM »

Quote from: ZOTAN
It has been "banned" but facilities can put in a request for a waiver. About 99.9% of all airports in the US put in for the waiver and were approved. The only difference now is using "position and hold" instead of "taxi into position in hold". It was just a move by the FAA to make the public happy. Too bad they dont tell them about how 99% of all facilities got a waiver.


Interesting...So if I understand correctly, position and holding on a runway is still acceptable. However, one must use the phrase: "Position and Hold, runway XX." Have I misunderstood??

Cessna172
Home Airport: West Houston Airport (KIWS)
www.westhoustonairport.com
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ZOTAN
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« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2006, 05:55:09 PM »

Quote from: Cessna172
Interesting...So if I understand correctly, position and holding on a runway is still acceptable. However, one must use the phrase: "Position and Hold, runway XX." Have I misunderstood??


Basically.  As long as you have the waiver, you are ok. (99.9% of all facilies got the waiver) The proper phraesolgy is just "Runway XX, Position and Hold".
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Matt Stevens
digger
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« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2006, 10:35:02 PM »

Zotan, I asked too, and apparently you're right, with some qualification.

The current waivers are temporary (30 days, I believe), and the paperwork has to be submitted again for consideration on a more long lasting basis. How it'll be handled after that is still up in the air, so to speak.

The way the FAA is being run these days, who knows how it'll turn out in the end...
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JC_UND_ATC
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« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2006, 11:22:36 PM »

Quote from: ZOTAN
Quote from: Cessna172
Interesting...So if I understand correctly, position and holding on a runway is still acceptable. However, one must use the phrase: "Position and Hold, runway XX." Have I misunderstood??


Basically.  As long as you have the waiver, you are ok. (99.9% of all facilies got the waiver) The proper phraesolgy is just "Runway XX, Position and Hold".


So I wonder how many months/years and tax payer money it took to think of this bright idea when most of the facilities got the waiver......

I can't wait to work for the FAA!  rolleyes
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binky
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« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2006, 12:30:11 PM »

Can someone explain why this has come about?  If the root of the problem is "taxi to position and hold" could be misheard as "taxi to position and roll" then why not simply use "taxi to position" or "line-up"? Why keep "hold" as part of the phraseolgy at all?
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PHL Approach
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« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2006, 12:38:30 PM »

Quote from: binky
Can someone explain why this has come about?  If the root of the problem is "taxi to position and hold" could be misheard as "taxi to position and roll" then why not simply use "taxi to position" or "line-up"? Why keep "hold" as part of the phraseolgy at all?


I don't know where you got that from. The reason behind this is that a very small amount of isolated incidents had occured. When an aircraft was told to TIPH, with another aircraft on final that had already been given landing clearance. The aircraft that is holding on the rwy is then flown over by the landing aircraft. Or in most cases, the arriving pilot will catch this and go around. One case that someone might remember was at LAX about a year ago, IIRC. A SWA 73 was TIPH, and a Asiana 744 was on final. They saw the SWA and went around, missed him vertically by about 150 feet.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2006, 01:07:42 PM »

Whenever I think of position and hold, I think of this accident that occurred in Sarasota, Florida, back in March of 2000.

A C152 was cleared for takeoff and a C172 called ready, to which the tower controller, who had thought the C172 was at the approach end of the runway, instructed the pilot to "taxi into position and hold."  

In reality, the C172 was at an intersection further up the runway.  The C172 then proceeded to roll out onto the runway right in front of the C152, which was at full takeoff power.  Four people were killed:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20001212X20686&ntsbno=MIA00FA103A&akey=1
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
tyketto
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« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2006, 01:08:46 PM »

Quote from: binky
Can someone explain why this has come about?  If the root of the problem is "taxi to position and hold" could be misheard as "taxi to position and roll" then why not simply use "taxi to position" or "line-up"? Why keep "hold" as part of the phraseolgy at all?


Okay, let's take this from an ICAO perspective.

In the UK/Europe, instead of TIPH/P&H, they use 'line up and wait'. Going off your suggestion here, if they line up, there is no such thing as an implied 'wait', and could begin their takeoff roll as they wish as there is nothing explicitly said by ATC to stop them. Imagine doing that in a King Air while the preceding departing plane is heavy. Nice In-n-Out situation* there.

BL.

*Founder of In-n-Out Burger was flying into SNA, and was following a B757. This prop got caught in the 757's wake and crashed. no survivors. This is what fueled the need for 'caution wake turbulence'.
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