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Author Topic: Going Around  (Read 7083 times)
ZOTAN
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« on: November 14, 2005, 12:54:48 AM »

I wish I recorded this!

For the past 10-15 minutes, all we have had is constant go arounds at KSAN. Theres some pretty heavy fog right now and they havent been able to switch over to the ILS Runway 9. Started off like this:

"Tower, United 8209 on the Go-Around"
"United 8209 Fly Runway heading, Contact Socal 12X.XX"
"Runway heading and socal on 12X.XX"
"Tower, Southwest 289 on the go"
"Dito"
"Dito"
"Tower, Delta 821 on the go"
"Dito"
"Dito"
"Tower, Southwest 1721 on the localizer for 27, would like ILS Runway 9"
"Southwest 1721, Unable, Winds 270 at 6, Runway 27, Cleared to Land"
"Cleared to land, Southwest 1721"
"Tower, Southwest 1721 on the go" (By this time Im laughing)

I just heard Southwest 289 on the ILS for Runway 9. I guess the switched it around, but made for some pretty interesting moments. Ugh...I wish I recorded it.
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Matt Stevens
ZOTAN
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« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2005, 01:05:42 AM »

Ceiling has now dropped below minimums for Runway 9. Tower seems a bit overwhelmed right now. Delta 821 had to call three times before he even got a response. Most guys will probably be diverting now....
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Matt Stevens
stealth71
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« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2005, 01:08:48 AM »

That would have been fun to listen to. We had a few missed approaches today due to snow, but not as many as you had.
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Chris Hart
Missoula International Airport (MSO) live feed.
http://www.liveatc.net/search/?icao=kmso

Ham Call: KE7MH
ZOTAN
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« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2005, 01:22:26 AM »

This is pretty fun to listen too! Hehe. So many guys have had to go around because the fogbank is so low. Southwest 2407 (I think) is on his third missed approach.

Ive heard some pilots ask for "RVR Minimums". What is that?
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Matt Stevens
ZOTAN
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« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2005, 01:36:51 AM »

Ugh....I wish I had a way to record this.

Listening to Socal now and had United 8205 say he was low on fuel and needed to divert to LAX.

Also, Delta 1864  is now diverting to Ontario. Will I be able to pick these guys up on the Socal feed?
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Matt Stevens
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« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2005, 07:16:10 AM »

Good to see they finally switched to 9. I have seen Philly run the 27's with winds out of the east up to 10-15 knots. So SAN really needed to suck it up.


Quote from: ZOTAN
I've heard some pilots ask for "RVR Minimums". What is that?


RVR is Runway Visual Range, there are three meters on the side of the rwy at the Touchdown, Midpoint and Rollout measuring the visibility down the runway from each point. As for the Minimums, it know what is means. But I just can't think of it.
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Jason
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« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2005, 07:18:00 AM »

Direct definition from the Pilot/Controller Glossary.  There is no real good brief description.

Quote
VISIBILITY- The ability, as determined by atmospheric conditions and expressed in units of distance, to see and identify prominent unlighted objects by day and prominent lighted objects by night. Visibility is reported as statute miles, hundreds of feet or meters.

(Refer to 14 CFR Part 91.)

(Refer to AIM.)

    e. Runway Visual Range (RVR)- An instrumentally derived value, based on standard calibrations, that represents the horizontal distance a pilot will see down the runway from the approach end. It is based on the sighting of either high intensity runway lights or on the visual contrast of other targets whichever yields the greater visual range. RVR, in contrast to prevailing or runway visibility, is based on what a pilot in a moving aircraft should see looking down the runway. RVR is horizontal visual range, not slant visual range. It is based on the measurement of a transmissometer made near the touchdown point of the instrument runway and is reported in hundreds of feet. RVR is used in lieu of RVV and/or prevailing visibility in determining minimums for a particular runway.


"RVR Minimums"--hrmmm, there are RVR minimums on approach charts for fields/runways that have an RVR (usually on precision approach runways) but I haven't heard pilots ask it using that phraseology.
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dave
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« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2005, 11:39:26 AM »

Pilots have certain RVR minimums based on their type aircraft and company operations policies, I believe.  You probably won't find these documented in any FCC documents, since I believe they're particular to each company/airline.

Dave
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digger
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« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2005, 04:57:18 PM »

Quote
You probably won't find these documented in any FCC documents,



Or FAA ones...

 wink
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2005, 05:37:29 PM »

Quote from: dave
Pilots have certain RVR minimums based on their type aircraft and company operations policies, I believe.  You probably won't find these documented in any FCC documents, since I believe they're particular to each company/airline.


RVR is converted to visibility in statute miles and a minimum visibility in statute miles (and sometimes RVR) is published on all instrument approach procedures as per category of aircraft (this category is based on approach speed of the aircraft).  Thus, in the US the RVR is covered under FAA regulations, ยง 91.175 "Takeoff and landing under IFR"  to be specific.  See here for this FAR (towards the bottom of the page for specific mention of RVR):

http://tinyurl.com/cv9hk

See the US AIM here for a chart and brief discussion of RVR, too:

http://www.faa.gov/ATPubs/AIM/Chap5/aim0504.html#5-4-19

Here is an ILS published instrument procedure for KSYR.  Note that visibility is in RVR (drop the two trailing zeros) and included in the minimums table at the bottom of the chart:

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/approach/pdfs/00411IL10.PDF

Typically, CAT I ILS has a minimum visibility of 1/2 mile, or 2400 RVR.

In the US, Part 91 (general aviation) flights are not forbidden to shoot approaches when visibility and/or ceilings are reported below minimums.  Part 135 (charter/air taxi) and Part 121 (scheduled flight) are forbidden.

When I was training for my instrument rating in the central NY winter of 2002-03, I was shooting approaches with my instructor one heavy lake-induced snow event evening.  

Approach control kept calling out RVR to all inbound aircraft, and this RVR kept fluctuating between below minimums (for CAT 1 ILS) and just above.  I recall being on approach in our lowly 172 when approach control had to place at least three inbound airliners in holds because the RVR that particular moment went below minimums.  As soon as the controller called an RVR that was above minimums, she was able to begin sequencing them for approach.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2005, 05:52:39 PM »

Regarding aircraft approach categories, here is the quote from the US AIM.  FWIW, my Bonanza falls in the approach category B:


---------------  start quote --------------------------
(from: http://www.faa.gov/ATPubs/AIM/Chap5/aim0504.html#5-4-7)


    a. Aircraft approach category means a grouping of aircraft based on a speed of VREF, if specified, or if  VREF not specified, 1.3 VSO at the maximum certificated landing weight. VREF, VSO, and the maximum certificated landing weight are those values as established for the aircraft by the certification authority of the country of registry. Helicopters are Category A aircraft. An aircraft must fit in only one category. Pilots are responsible for determining and briefing which category minimums will be used for each instrument approach. If a higher approach speed is used on final that places the aircraft in a higher approach category, the minimums for the higher category must be used. Approaches made with inoperative flaps, circling approaches at higher-than normal straight-in approach speeds, and approaches made in icing conditions for some types of airplanes are all examples of situations that can necessitate the use of a higher approach category. See the following category limits:

        1. Category A: Speed less than 91 knots.

        2. Category B: Speed 91 knots or more but less than 121 knots.

        3. Category C: Speed 121 knots or more but less than 141 knots.

        4. Category D: Speed 141 knots or more but less than 166 knots.

        5. Category E: Speed 166 knots or more.

        NOTE-
        VREF is the reference landing approach speed, usually about
        1.3 times VSO  plus 50 percent of the wind gust speed in excess of the mean wind speed (See 14 CFR Section 23.73). VSO is the stalling speed or the minimum steady flight speed in the landing configuration at maximum weight (See 14 CFR Section 23.49).
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
Check Airman
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« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2005, 06:35:24 PM »

Quote from: ZOTAN
I wish I recorded this!

For the past 10-15 minutes, all we have had is constant go arounds at KSAN. Theres some pretty heavy fog right now and they havent been able to switch over to the ILS Runway 9. Started off like this:

"Tower, United 8209 on the Go-Around"
"United 8209 Fly Runway heading, Contact Socal 12X.XX"
"Runway heading and socal on 12X.XX"
"Tower, Southwest 289 on the go"
"Dito"
"Dito"
"Tower, Delta 821 on the go"
"Dito"
"Dito"
"Tower, Southwest 1721 on the localizer for 27, would like ILS Runway 9"
"Southwest 1721, Unable, Winds 270 at 6, Runway 27, Cleared to Land"
"Cleared to land, Southwest 1721"
"Tower, Southwest 1721 on the go" (By this time Im laughing)

I just heard Southwest 289 on the ILS for Runway 9. I guess the switched it around, but made for some pretty interesting moments. Ugh...I wish I recorded it.


Approximately what zulu time was that happening? I'd like to download the clips from the archives.
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ZOTAN
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« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2005, 07:10:49 PM »

It was betwen 21:00 to 23:30 local. Unfortunately, I havent been able to get a feed for KSAN up yet. You may be able to get the guys that diverted up to LAX and ONT on the Socal feed around midnight local. I havent checked yet.
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Matt Stevens
dave
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« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2005, 10:43:24 PM »

Quote from: digger
Quote
You probably won't find these documented in any FCC documents,



Or FAA ones...

 wink


It's been a long day.  smiley  At least someone out there is awake!

-dave
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HAMMER_KPDX
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« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2005, 03:46:32 PM »

Yesterday and today listening to KSEA I've heard the ATC talk about RVR....
giving the Touch Down, Mid Field, Roll Out distances.
I just had to know "What's this about?"
Did a search and found this:

http://www.aviation.ca/content/view/1642/129/

http://rvr.fly.faa.gov/rvr/help.html

In case anyone is interested. Smiley
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Cliff
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