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Author Topic: indianapolis atc  (Read 8106 times)
nd0725
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« on: April 16, 2008, 02:03:47 PM »

I live close to indianapolis and have been listening to the atc online.I was just wondering why are they always doing visual approaches?That's all i hear them say on there when talking about approaches.
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IndyTower
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« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2008, 03:25:21 PM »

The weather's been clear enough to do so...instrument approaches have not been necessary.  If you listen between about 11pm and 1am local you're hear more vectors for ILS approaches during the FedEx rush.
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tyketto
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« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2008, 03:43:12 PM »

I live close to indianapolis and have been listening to the atc online.I was just wondering why are they always doing visual approaches?That's all i hear them say on there when talking about approaches.

A number of reasons here.

First, traffic conditions allot for it. Just because an airport has instrument approaches for runways doesn't mean they must always be used. In most cases in the US, visual approaches are even preferred over instrument approaches. Only places where I've seen instrument approaches used first and foremost are JFK and LAX, and even in LAX's case, they may be given the ILS approach first, but as they get closer to the field, pilots are asked to point out traffic converging. If they see it, they are told to follow the traffic and be cleared for a visual approach.

Second, comes the responsibility of separation on the approach. In an instrument approach, that responsibility lies totally on ATC. With a visual approach, the pilot is responsible for his/her separation. This gives ATC the ability to handle more traffic in the arrival stream/corridor, and sequence them in easier.

Third is weather. if the field is VMC, why not? Most times, you can see the field from a good 20nm out, depending on conditions at the field. There may be times where they may need to use the instrument approach (for example, you're landing west, it's late afternoon, and the sun is in your eye). This happens more times than not at places like LAS or PHX, where they would use the instrument approach at times like that. Or if visibility is the issue, then it's best to go with instrument approaches.

So there's a number of factors to go along with instrument vs. visual, but that's the bulk of it. I'm sure other controllers would love to chime in on this with their experiences.

BL.
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2008, 05:35:40 PM »

The greatest reason, other than the weather conditions allowing for it, would be the increased volume of aircraft that can be brought into the airport as a result of granting all inbound IFR aircraft visual approaches. 

Higher volume means that airplanes get on the ground faster, saving airlines money in fuel costs, passengers a few minutes of time, and controllers the headache of having to separate approaching aircraft to a greater standard.

(not a controller but an active IFR pilot)
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
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« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2008, 11:03:41 AM »

Because controllers are lazy. And visual approaches are real easy to do. And you can do more ops per hour doing the visual approaches versus the ILS and such. Visual Separation is a great tool for controllers!!
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Nightmare 68, Fargo Tower, Runway 36, Fly Runway Heading, Mantain 10,000, Cleared For Takeoff, Change To Departure
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« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2008, 11:30:06 AM »

it also allows pilots to decend at there own rate and is faster in some cases. ex. a pilot inbound on a heading of 180 looking to land on rwy16, he can intercept final at any point instead of having to fly past the airport to a fix before going inbound.
(not a ifr pilot but an active controller)
« Last Edit: April 17, 2008, 11:31:46 AM by skip » Logged
IndyTower
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« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2008, 11:39:25 AM »

After I posted yesterday I was thinking I should have explained more reasons behind this...nice job of doing that guys.  I'm glad you guys chipped in as my ISP was off and on the rest of the day and I couldn't post anything else.
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ogogog
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« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2008, 12:10:31 PM »

who ever says that running VAs can land more a/c has never run a busy final at ORD or MDW, ive seen controllers put thems selves down the crapper trying to run pure visuals " got en in sight, got en in signt ,got em in sight".its always easer to run ILS and set up your spaceing,if the pilots calls an aircraft ill give a VA but if thay dont my final is established and iam not scrambling.but thats the diffrance between level 3 atc and level 5 atc.iam not saying i dont use VAs but i dont use them stupidly(is that even a word Huh).
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KSYR-pjr
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« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2008, 12:15:56 PM »

who ever says that running VAs can land more a/c has never run a busy final at ORD or MDW, ive seen controllers put thems selves down the crapper trying to run pure visuals " got en in sight, got en in signt ,got em in sight".its always easer to run ILS and set up your spaceing,if the pilots calls an aircraft ill give a VA but if thay dont my final is established and iam not scrambling.but thats the diffrance between level 3 atc and level 5 atc.iam not saying i dont use VAs but i dont use them stupidly(is that even a word Huh).

Yes, I was thinking about pointing out that fact, too.  Despite CAVU weather at Boston Logan, I noticed when I go there that they almost always use the ILS for the big jets to keep them nicely sequenced to the airport.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
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« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2008, 09:10:06 PM »

CAVU??? i assume thats the same as what we call CAVOK (CAV-ok) which stand for Ceiling And Visiblity OKay. to use the term cavok when reading weather you need, no cloud below 5000 ft, or below the highest min sector alt, whichever is higher, and no CB's, vis of 6sm or more and no precip, thunderstorms, shallow fog or drifting snow
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davolijj
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« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2008, 10:35:02 PM »

It used to mean Ceiling And Visibility Unlimited.  Apparently they've changed the meaning according to the 7340.1 Contractions Manual.

Quote from: 7340.1 Contractions
CAVOK
 cloud and visibility OK
 
CAVU
 clear or scattered clouds and visibility greater than ten miles

Technically, "Clear or Scattered clounds" (along with FEW clouds) still consitutes an unlimited ceiling since there is no broken, overcast, or vertical visibility into an indefinite ceiling present for the condition.  But the official definition here is straight from the book and it appears to have been translated into more "plain" language.

The only time I ever see the term CAVU used anymore is in older NTSB reports or in flying magazines.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2008, 10:37:45 PM by davolijj » Logged

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JD
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« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2008, 10:45:11 PM »

The only time I ever see the term CAVU used anymore is in older NTSB reports or in flying magazines.

Pass me the Metamucil, sonny.
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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
davolijj
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« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2008, 10:52:27 PM »

[Pass me the Metamucil, sonny.

Woops, sorry PJ, didn't mean to imply that.  Trust me I'm no spring chicken myself....especially on these boards.
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JD
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« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2008, 11:07:23 PM »

Woops, sorry PJ, didn't mean to imply that.  Trust me I'm no spring chicken myself....especially on these boards.

No worries -  I was just messin' around.    Smiley  Smiley

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Regards, Peter
ATC Feed:  Syracuse (KSYR), NY
w0x0f
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« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2008, 01:57:11 PM »

[Pass me the Metamucil, sonny.

Woops, sorry PJ, didn't mean to imply that.  Trust me I'm no spring chicken myself....especially on these boards.

Hey JD,

I remember when you asked me what w0x0f meant too.  Trust me, you are still a spring chicken my friend.  That's a good thing.

PJ, can you spare some Metamucil?

w0x0f

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