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Author Topic: FAA: Line up and Wait?  (Read 18511 times)

Offline jrsx

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FAA: Line up and Wait?
« on: September 15, 2010, 09:24:26 PM »
So I got this email today from the FAA:

First I don't like this at all, I believe "Position and Hold" is a better and more efficient Phraseology

Any ideas as to why the FAA would make a change like his
Quote
Line Up and Wait
Notice Number: NOTC2554

Line Up and Wait Phraseology Change
 

·    Beginning September 30, 2010 , the words “Line Up and Wait” will replace the words “Position and Hold” to instruct a pilot to enter the runway to await take-off clearance. Under the new “Line Up and Wait” phraseology, the controller will:
 

-      State your call-sign;

-      State the departure runway;

-      State “Line Up and Wait”.

 
·     Exercise Caution.  Be aware the phrase “Traffic Holding in Position” will continue to be used to advise other aircraft that traffic has been authorized to “Line Up and Wait” on an active runway.

·    REMEMBER:  Never cross a hold line without explicit ATC instructions.  You may not enter a runway unless you have been:
 

-      Instructed to cross or taxi onto that specific runway

-      Cleared to take off from that runway, or

-      Instructed to “Line Up and Wait” on that specific runway.


Please visit:  www.faa.gov/go/runwaysafety/  for more details on the change as well as to view an instructional animation explaining the new phraseology. 

If in doubt ASK!



Offline atcman23

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Re: FAA: Line up and Wait?
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2010, 08:19:40 AM »
Because the foreign pilots understand it (that's the phraseology used elsewhere around the world) and it's the ICAO standard.  It's going to cause some confusion I think and it just does not sound professional.  Nobody's really happy about it but the FAA isn't about making people happy, either.

Offline cessna157

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Re: FAA: Line up and Wait?
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2010, 09:33:33 AM »
Any ideas as to why the FAA would make a change like his

4 words:  ICAO

Offline jrsx

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Re: FAA: Line up and Wait?
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2010, 01:02:48 PM »
Because the foreign pilots understand it (that's the phraseology used elsewhere around the world) and it's the ICAO standard.  It's going to cause some confusion I think and it just does not sound professional.  Nobody's really happy about it but the FAA isn't about making people happy, either.

Yah, I get it, but "Position and Hold" just sounds so much better IMO

Offline bcradio

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Re: FAA: Line up and Wait?
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2010, 01:52:13 PM »
Canada changed over to line up and wait recently and it wasn't a really big deal.

Why not try to eliminate some risk for those flying into the United States?  It's not some assault against your national sovereignty or anything like that.

Offline joeyb747

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Re: FAA: Line up and Wait?
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2010, 07:41:47 PM »
Check out the thread I started in the clips section. XL Airways and Kennedy Tower go rounds on Position And Hold vs Line Up And Wait...pretty good listen...and good info in the thread. Happy Listening!  8-)

http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviation-audio-clips/position-and-hold-vs-line-up-and-wait/

Offline MCM

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Re: FAA: Line up and Wait?
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2010, 09:47:02 PM »
Best thing they've done in years.

Now standard around the world.

Brilliant :)

Doesn't sound professional? What a load of crap. Position and Hold is just an excuse for controllers to make the word position sound as long as possible. "Pooooooooooooooooooosition and hold".

Radio comms around the rest of the world are largely professional. The USA is the best example of unprofessional, inprecise and lazy comms that can be demonstrated.

How is it going to cause confusion? Its a simple phrase. If pilots and ATC can't be informed of such a simple amendement to procedure, then how will large change ever be implemented?



Offline RV1

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Re: FAA: Line up and Wait?
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2010, 10:33:17 AM »
Best thing they've done in years.

Now standard around the world.

Brilliant :)

Doesn't sound professional? What a load of crap. Position and Hold is just an excuse for controllers to make the word position sound as long as possible. "Pooooooooooooooooooosition and hold".

Radio comms around the rest of the world are largely professional. The USA is the best example of unprofessional, inprecise and lazy comms that can be demonstrated.

How is it going to cause confusion? Its a simple phrase. If pilots and ATC can't be informed of such a simple amendement to procedure, then how will large change ever be implemented?



Really?
This is far from 'the best thing they've done in years'.
I think flat screens instead of old computer monitors would fit that phrase much more than changing the U.S. phraseology to that of ICAO because icao thinks it's better and offers less chance for confusion. I would guess that 85% or better of the U.S. controllers would disagree with icao, but hey, we just work the planes...
Truly, we can say "Liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup and wait" just as easy as we can the example that MCM provided about position and hold, but P&H sounds LESS professional? I'm not sure where the education came from that provided the background for that statement, but if I were you, I'd ask for a refund.

Offline Casper87

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Re: FAA: Line up and Wait?
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2010, 12:01:21 PM »
It's a good change, although you might not think so. At least everyone will be singing from the same hymn sheet now, and that can only be positive.

Watch out though, they'll be making you guys use Hectopascals next...  :evil:

Casper

Offline RV1

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Re: FAA: Line up and Wait?
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2010, 12:27:44 PM »
Sorry for the break, I had to go back to work...
I would be a fool to say that ALL comms across the U.S. are totally professional and have no room for improvement. We do push a decent amount of traffic and at times, our phraseology is sub par (for some of us, quite regularly), but to say that the U.S. has the worst around the world? I can't really agree with that.
Maybe you've watched "Pushin' Tin" too many times.

I realize that having a common hymn sheet for all isn't a bad thing, but to say that L U A W is easy to understand and removes ALL chances for confusion is rather sophomoric. The average pilot (and plenty of controllers) has a great ability to mis-understand things, clear or not.
And by the way, have you looked at the taxiways at the majority of U.S. airports at key times of the day? The planes are already 'lined up and waiting'.

Offline MCM

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Re: FAA: Line up and Wait?
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2010, 12:46:46 AM »
Position and Hold does not sound less professional than line up and wait - they're both approprite phrases. I was just trying to point out the rediculous assertion from a previous poster that line up and wait is less professional than position and hold. Its a rediculous concept.

There is nothing wrong with the USA being as non-standard and lax as they want with their phraseology if they operate in isolation. But they do not. They are a part of the global aviation community, and as such should be working towards common goals.

Where has the highest incidence of runway incursion? Could it be the USA international airports? I wonder why.

Position and Hold has no advantage over Line up and Wait. Line up and wait has one advantage - it is STANDARD, and everyone else uses it. Thats why we have ICAO - to work towards standardisation. There is no reason NOT to be standard, and so it should be.

I'm sure the USA controlelrs will be more than capable of using line up and wait.

We all disagree with ICAO at times - but the point is that they are working for an international solution, and there is a far bigger safety gain from using standardisation than there is from insisting on different wording for no reason.


Offline w0x0f

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Re: FAA: Line up and Wait?
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2010, 01:59:07 AM »

Where has the highest incidence of runway incursion? Could it be the USA international airports? I wonder why.


I couldn't find airport specific statistics but I did find that from October 2009 through July 2010, general aviation aircraft were involved in 78% of runway incursions occurring at USA airports.  I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the majority of those GA runway incursions occurred at other than international airports.

http://www.faa.gov/airports/runway_safety/statistics/media/2010%2008%20RSO%20BRIEFING.pdf

I can also say that after working in 2 busy international airport towers for the past 28 years, I have never once seen a runway incursion occur due to confusion over "taxi into position and hold," or the replacement phraseology, "position and hold." 

I'm all for standardization but doubt very seriously if this change will have any effect on the rate of runway incursions.

w0x0f


Offline MCM

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Re: FAA: Line up and Wait?
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2010, 03:32:51 AM »
Unfortunately this alone probably won't make much of a change in pure incursion rate - international movements are a small number of the overall movements - however it only has to stop one or two to be worth making the change. Other work needs to continue on incursion rate. This change is not just about stopping incursions, its about reducing stress, and making things standard as you acknowledge. It should not be hard to fly a plane around the world in terms of understanding ATC - but at the moment it is. IFALPA used to publish that the two biggest airports for incursions were LAX and JFK (hence the major anti-incursion work done at LAX), however I'm struggling to find the documents for now.

It still amazes me in this day and age that there isn't common phraseology. At least this is one step in the right direction.

Btw, I'm certainly not critisising US ATC which is quite good - controllers use the phrases they are required to. The only change I'd make would be strict adherance to those standard phrases and less informal language - but that isn't confined to the US (although it is particularly common there), and us pilots are just as to blame.

Offline Jason

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Re: FAA: Line up and Wait?
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2010, 10:57:03 AM »
It still amazes me in this day and age that there isn't common phraseology. At least this is one step in the right direction.

From my perspective, that's why the move to "line up and wait" is being implemented.  It standardizes phraseology and conforms to ICAO standard which is used around the world.  I don't necessarily see this as a project designed to reduce runway incursions (though it might).  The FAA has plenty of other projects in progress to work toward reducing the number of runway incursions, including the runway status light system test at Boston Logan.  Hot Spot areas on charts have gotten much better over the last 10 years in addition to the enhanced centerline markings and runway guard lights.