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Author Topic: JAL 744 gets baggage cart sucked into #1 engine @ LAX  (Read 11718 times)

Offline ARMEDnPISSED

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Offline jrsx

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Re: JAL 744 gets baggage cart sucked into #1 engine @ LAX
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2009, 12:27:23 AM »
oops!!  :-o

Offline atcman23

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Re: JAL 744 gets baggage cart sucked into #1 engine @ LAX
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2009, 07:12:58 AM »
I've seen a picture of a Fed Ex plane who ingested the same type of object.  Really shows how much power those big engines have!  The ATC conversation was likely very brief; the crew probably didn't know more than that they ingested something into the engine until after they got back to the gate.

Offline Qantas119

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Re: JAL 744 gets baggage cart sucked into #1 engine @ LAX
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2009, 12:48:02 PM »
I Agree completely there have been many aircraft that have sucked in bagage crates or other strange objects.

I will post later a picture that i have found I do believe it is a delta jet but don't quote me.
I'm pretty sure that the aircraft was departing the gate as a cargo train passed by... sucking the crate from its mounts into the engine cowling, wedging it there.
does it ring any bells
happened a while back

Other common mistakes are unbalanced fueling.

Offline joeyb747

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Re: JAL 744 gets baggage cart sucked into #1 engine @ LAX
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2009, 07:40:54 PM »
Wow...ok...try explaining that one to your boss! It was a container that got sucked off a passing cart.

A couple of questions though...
1) What was a tug with bag containers doing out on the taxi way?  :?
2) What was it doing in front of a moving B747?  :-o
3) Why was not the container locked onto its cart? If the container is PROPERLY locked onto its cart, it will not come off the cart, even if it tips over!  :wink:

Here are several containers and carts. Note the locking mechs on each, they grab the edges of the container(click on each title, and you can look at the technical data and some better pics of each container and it's cart):

http://www.universal-aero.ru/srepake.htm

Here is another news story:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-luggage12-2009may12,0,7789535.story
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 07:54:14 PM by joeyb747 »

Offline Qantas119

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Re: JAL 744 gets baggage cart sucked into #1 engine @ LAX
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2009, 12:21:44 AM »
My best guess is that he picked it up after or while leaving the gate...and since they are instructed to taxi on as few engines as possible they probably didn't notice the funny readings..
not til the run up did the engines malfunction/restriction present itself.... like your Fed EX cargo jet..
{[Wow...ok...try explaining that one to your boss! It was a container that got sucked off a passing cart.]}
Don't hate its just an opinion.

Offline joeyb747

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Re: JAL 744 gets baggage cart sucked into #1 engine @ LAX
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2009, 10:18:59 AM »
99% of the time, aircraft are pushed back from the gate by the tug. Once clear of the gate area(and items like baggage bins), they start engines. Starting engines in the gate area can be dangerous. Anyone remember Air Florida 90? It was a B737-200 in KDCA that used reverse thrust to back out of the gate, and sucked snow and ice into the powerplants. The crew also blundered by not turning on the engine anti-ice equipment, causing false readings on takeoff. The engine instruments indicated takeoff power, but was only producing about 60% thrust. The aircraft stalled, and crashed into the Patomic River. Off the subject a bit...but that's why they don't start engines in the gate area.  :wink:

The only time they do minimum powerplant taxi is during heavy congestion. They will taxi from the gate area on all engines, get in line, and then if it's going to be a long delay, they shut down an engine or two to save fuel.

Offline Qantas119

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Re: JAL 744 gets baggage cart sucked into #1 engine @ LAX
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2009, 04:01:33 PM »
I'm sorry, i might have read the article wrong but it may have been only when the fuel prices were thugh the roof... Don't tell me about Hedging because its just  the process of buying extra fuel at a certain price but i'm not saying that it isn't possible to suck stuff into a malfunction engine...

in the aspect of an uncommanded start.

Referance the previous posts of mine about the B757 or 737. that started uncommanded on the ramp at the gate. sucking one of the cargo pods into the engine.

Offline joeyb747

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Re: JAL 744 gets baggage cart sucked into #1 engine @ LAX
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2009, 04:15:56 PM »
Absolutely it is possible to suck anything not tied down into a jet engine! That is why, normally, they do not start them in the gate area...just saying... :wink:

If you look at video, it shows the 747 out on the taxiway, near a turn. I find it hard to believe the crew didn't notice the bag bin in the intake until they were on taxi. I think what happened, and this is just a guess, the 747 was taxiing with all engines running. the bag train was driven to close to the aircraft(It references that in the article), the empty bin was not locked onto its cart, and it got drawn into the engine.
Here is the story again. Look at the pic at the beginning, it shows the edge of the taxiway, not the middle of the ramp. :wink:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-luggage12-2009may12,0,7789535.story

Offline mhawke

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Re: JAL 744 gets baggage cart sucked into #1 engine @ LAX
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2009, 08:31:43 AM »
The only time they do minimum powerplant taxi is during heavy congestion. They will taxi from the gate area on all engines, get in line, and then if it's going to be a long delay, they shut down an engine or two to save fuel.

Depends on the company.  Every Jetblue flight I have been on only starts one engine at the ramp after pushback and starts the other engine during taxi as they approach the runway.

US Air seems to follow the same convention.  They also shutdown one engine (on two engine aircraft of course) on landing as soon as they are clear of the runway.

Offline joeyb747

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Re: JAL 744 gets baggage cart sucked into #1 engine @ LAX
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2009, 08:40:19 PM »
The only time they do minimum powerplant taxi is during heavy congestion. They will taxi from the gate area on all engines, get in line, and then if it's going to be a long delay, they shut down an engine or two to save fuel.

Depends on the company.  Every Jetblue flight I have been on only starts one engine at the ramp after pushback and starts the other engine during taxi as they approach the runway.

US Air seems to follow the same convention.  They also shutdown one engine (on two engine aircraft of course) on landing as soon as they are clear of the runway.

It also depends on type of aircraft. An A320 or a B737 will move a lot easier on one engine the a fully loaded B747 of A340 will.  :wink:

I've heard of three-holers (DC-10, L-1011, MD-11) shutting down the center (#2) engine on taxi, or not starting it until near take off...

I have a friend who is a type rated Captain in the B747-400 and A330. I will catch up with him and see what his companys' procedure is...

Offline joeyb747

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Re: JAL 744 gets baggage cart sucked into #1 engine @ LAX
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2009, 06:03:53 PM »
Ok...per the Captain:

The B747-400 taxis on all four on departure taxi, especially when heavy(I.E. Trans-pacific Departure). They have a N1 limit of 40% for taxi.

They can taxi light on three engines. Again, they have a N1 limit of 40% on taxi, so sometimes, a three engine taxi will not work.

They usually push back before starting ANY engines.

The only time an engine is started in the gate area, is when they have an INOP APU. And in that case, it is number four that is started. Number four has an axillary hydraulic pump that feeds brakes and steering.